[Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review Response

Mon Aug 27 22:53:27 EST 2007

Hi Stephen,

 It could be a legacy of the trial school arrangement we have had since 1995 
as one of 3 schools with the Optus trial.
We still use the VicSmart provider options for the Admin area ( Netspace ).

Take Care
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au
kevork at edulists.com.au

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Digby" <digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>
To: "'Information Technology Teachers' Offtopic Mailing List'" 
<offtopic at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review Response

> Kevork.... How come you can get internet access outside the govt 
> contract.....
> I want some too !
>
> ====================================================
> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
> mailto: admin at cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Ph: 613 955 55 955  Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
> ====================================================
> Popularity is the crown of laurel which the world puts on bad art. 
> Whatever is popular is wrong.   Oscar Wilde
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au 
> [mailto:offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Kevork Krozian
> Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 1:03 PM
> To: 'Information Technology Teachers' Offtopic Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: [Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review 
> Response
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Can't help but react to this thread by recalling my Uni lecturer back in 
> the early 80s responding to a push to pay more to
> lecturers who were in high demand fields such as IT ( or Computer Science 
> as it was known as back then). He had come from IBM
> leaving behind a huge salary but was now "just a lecturer" and so in a 
> more modest environment financially.
>
>  I don't know that there is intrinsically anything below "professional" 
> quality/status/output in what teachers deliver in their
> working day. It is surely supply and demand that dictates what they can 
> charge, negotiated collectively on their behalf by a
> representative group called a union. When there is a shortage anywhere in 
> the world, the relevant employer increases
> pay/bonuses/subsidies etc to attract people to that area. They are 
> recruiting in Dubai right now , tax free with free accommodation
> and furniture and return flights twice annually to Melbourne at pay rates 
> equal to the gross rates here ....
> [  As a further aside there is a fortune to be made in taxis for disabled 
> transport due to unreliable and insufficient supply of
> these vehicles/services for the demand out there. So you don't need a 4 
> year tertiary qualification and can make much more than a
> teacher for those of our readers disgruntled with their lot .... ]
>
> I believe teaching is still hostage to the public perception that it is a 
> variant of child minding. Never mind that teachers can
> demonstrate that they are not just "minding" children but teaching them 
> economically valid current industry level skills such as how
> to write a program as you would see written in industry ( slightly 
> modified to fit into time constraints of the course ), how to
> create an eCommerce web site as you would use if you were running a 
> business or working for a company running their business.
> Perhaps others can tell me what other fabulous work they are doing in 
> their classes as well.
>
>  So why is this not valued at " industry professional rates " ? We are 
> imparting this knowledge to a group of 10 , 20 , 25
> students. They can apply  this knowledge 25 times in industry. We are 
> teaching , assessing and improving the standards at which
> students learn these skills.  We are not just teaching. We are developing 
> , testing, doing, teaching and requiring others "to do" as
> we have done or go further if they are able. Why is this not valued more 
> than just " teachers can't do so they teach others how to
> do " ?
>
>  We are relentlessly being driven to improve, increase , grow, expand, 
> extend, challenge, customise, tailor for individual learning
> styles, as we impart this knowledge to these 25 students yet we are not 
> unrelentingly driving the message home to our employer about
> the value they are extracting from us. How many industries have IT 
> networks that come close to what we deliver in schools ?  We are
> squeezed into even more productivity improvements in return for an extra 1 
> or 2 % increase in wages.  About as ridiculous as the
> brainwave of the opposition in offering to reward outstanding teachers 
> with increased pay of $3000 per annum. That is a couple of
> medium sized pizzas with a litre of coke per week for how many hours extra 
> work ? was it 10 or 20 hours ?
>
>  If we are only ever perceived as "skilled workers" we can never hope for 
> any more than mediocrity in recompense . Translation ,
> get a second job, venture, business , investment if you seek higher 
> financial reward. Why not buy property, develop it and secure
> your future that way ? or you can teach at night in a TAFE if you want 
> more money.
>
> We need to better educate our employer about our value or if we can't then 
> we need to think about a move to Dubai !
>
>  I wonder what everyone else thinks ?
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Kevork Krozian
> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
> Mobile: 0419 356 034
>
>>>> "Stephen Digby" <digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au> 27/08/2007
>>>> 12:39 pm >>>
> Professionals generally negotiate the terms of their contract with clients 
> (even the "oldest profession" !).
> Modern employment practice (e.g. AWA) is working towards the mandating of 
> all employment conditions by the employer with only the
> very scarce or very highly valued labour able to undertake any real 
> negotiation.
> Teachers have little chance of becoming a profession in this real sense.
>
> We will remain skilled workers - a valued trade.
>
> The tag "professional" is usually used when management wants a worker to 
> fulfil roles beyond the paid agreement - "it's so
> professional to stay until the work is done regardless of pay".
>
> Teacher covet the tag because we are middle class aspirants who want to 
> maintain some social distinction from tradespeople.
>
> What we need is the government to regulate the teaching trade so that the 
> skill level of workers is maintained and workers are
> properly trained before starting work on our children.
>
> I just think that they should pay for it.
>
> I also think that teachers can choose to belong any number of 
> organisations reflecting the diversity of their views and if the
> government likes one of them (because it promotes the values that the 
> government likes) then it might assist with its funding.
>
> Just don't like the current setup of mandated membership of expensive and 
> ineffective "quango".
>
> ====================================================
> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
> mailto: admin at cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Ph: 613 955 55 955  Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028 
> ====================================================
> There are two kinds of failures: The man who will do nothing he is told, 
> and the man who will do nothing else. Perle Thompson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au 
> [mailto:offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of techo
> Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 12:25 PM
> To: Information Technology Teachers' Offtopic Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review 
> Response
>
> At 10:08 AM 27/08/2007, you wrote:
>> > Hello Stephen -
>> >
>> > Just for the info for the the few of us non-teachers here - is there
>> > a professional association for teachers along the lines on the
>> > Institution of Engineers Australia, the Royal Australian Institue of
>> > Architects, the AMA etc?...
>>
>>It is interesting that the bodies you mention fulfill the role of what
>>the union does for teachers, but as Engineers, Doctors, etc are
>>'professionals', there is a slightly different focus in their
>>associations/institutes.
>
> Maybe there lies the problem - teachers should think of themselves as 
> 'professionals' too. While the IEAust performed some of the
> functions of a union, they were run by working engineers rather than 
> career union officials, and had the broad interests of the
> members and the profession as their focus rather than political or IR 
> matters. I belonged to unions (such as APEA, MOA, ASU at
> different times) that handled the industrial matters of the day. Both have 
> a role to play.
>
> As a matter of strategy, a professional association probably has more 
> clout and better image than a militant union, and could
> achieve better outcomes for teachers in general by lifting the status and 
> public perception of teachers.
>
> rgds
> comrade Jim
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> We have to use this Disclaimer
>
> Views, opinions, etc. expressed reflect those of the author and not Ruyton 
> Girls' School
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Jim Maunder
> Ruyton Girls School
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
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