[Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review Response

Roland Gesthuizen rgesthuizen at gmail.com
Mon Aug 27 15:40:40 EST 2007

Great post Kevork .. bravo!

Some of my child's primary school teachers are moving to teach in Dubai? I
must have missed something about peak oil / promotions .. has there been
that much marketing?

Regards Roland

On 27/08/07, Kevork Krozian <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> Can't help but react to this thread by recalling my Uni lecturer back in
> the early 80s responding to a push to pay more to lecturers who were in high
> demand fields such as IT ( or Computer Science as it was known as back
> then). He had come from IBM leaving behind a huge salary but was now "just a
> lecturer" and so in a more modest environment financially.
>   I don't know that there is intrinsically anything below "professional"
> quality/status/output in what teachers deliver in their working day. It is
> surely supply and demand that dictates what they can charge, negotiated
> collectively on their behalf by a representative group called a union. When
> there is a shortage anywhere in the world, the relevant employer increases
> pay/bonuses/subsidies etc to attract people to that area. They are
> recruiting in Dubai right now , tax free with free accommodation and
> furniture and return flights twice annually to Melbourne at pay rates equal
> to the gross rates here ....
> [  As a further aside there is a fortune to be made in taxis for disabled
> transport due to unreliable and insufficient supply of these
> vehicles/services for the demand out there. So you don't need a 4 year
> tertiary qualification and can make much more than a teacher for those of
> our readers disgruntled with their lot .... ]
> I believe teaching is still hostage to the public perception that it is a
> variant of child minding. Never mind that teachers can demonstrate that they
> are not just "minding" children but teaching them economically valid current
> industry level skills such as how to write a program as you would see
> written in industry ( slightly modified to fit into time constraints of the
> course ), how to create an eCommerce web site as you would use if you were
> running a business or working for a company running their business. Perhaps
> others can tell me what other fabulous work they are doing in their classes
> as well.
>   So why is this not valued at " industry professional rates " ? We are
> imparting this knowledge to a group of 10 , 20 , 25  students. They can
> apply  this knowledge 25 times in industry. We are teaching , assessing and
> improving the standards at which students learn these skills.  We are not
> just teaching. We are developing , testing, doing, teaching and requiring
> others "to do" as we have done or go further if they are able. Why is this
> not valued more than just " teachers can't do so they teach others how to do
> " ?
>   We are relentlessly being driven to improve, increase , grow, expand,
> extend, challenge, customise, tailor for individual learning styles, as we
> impart this knowledge to these 25 students yet we are not unrelentingly
> driving the message home to our employer about the value they are extracting
> from us. How many industries have IT networks that come close to what we
> deliver in schools ?  We are squeezed into even more productivity
> improvements in return for an extra 1 or 2 % increase in wages.  About as
> ridiculous as the brainwave of the opposition in offering to reward
> outstanding teachers with increased pay of $3000 per annum. That is a couple
> of medium sized pizzas with a litre of coke per week for how many hours
> extra work ? was it 10 or 20 hours ?
>   If we are only ever perceived as "skilled workers" we can never hope for
> any more than mediocrity in recompense . Translation , get a second job,
> venture, business , investment if you seek higher financial reward. Why not
> buy property, develop it and secure your future that way ? or you can teach
> at night in a TAFE if you want more money.
> We need to better educate our employer about our value or if we can't then
> we need to think about a move to Dubai !
>   I wonder what everyone else thinks ?
> Regards
> Kevork Krozian
> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
> Mobile: 0419 356 034
> >>> "Stephen Digby" <digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au> 27/08/2007 12:39
> pm >>>
> Professionals generally negotiate the terms of their contract with clients
> (even the "oldest profession" !).
> Modern employment practice (e.g. AWA) is working towards the mandating of
> all employment conditions by the employer with only the
> very scarce or very highly valued labour able to undertake any real
> negotiation.
> Teachers have little chance of becoming a profession in this real sense.
> We will remain skilled workers - a valued trade.
> The tag "professional" is usually used when management wants a worker to
> fulfil roles beyond the paid agreement - "it's so
> professional to stay until the work is done regardless of pay".
> Teacher covet the tag because we are middle class aspirants who want to
> maintain some social distinction from tradespeople.
> What we need is the government to regulate the teaching trade so that the
> skill level of workers is maintained and workers are
> properly trained before starting work on our children.
> I just think that they should pay for it.
> I also think that teachers can choose to belong any number of
> organisations reflecting the diversity of their views and if the
> government likes one of them (because it promotes the values that the
> government likes) then it might assist with its funding.
> Just don't like the current setup of mandated membership of expensive and
> ineffective "quango".
> ====================================================
> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
> mailto: admin at cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
> Ph: 613 955 55 955  Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
> ====================================================
> There are two kinds of failures: The man who will do nothing he is told,
> and the man who will do nothing else. Perle Thompson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:
> offtopic-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of techo
> Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 12:25 PM
> To: Information Technology Teachers' Offtopic Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Offtopic] Points to consider including in VIT Review
> Response
> At 10:08 AM 27/08/2007, you wrote:
> > > Hello Stephen -
> > >
> > > Just for the info for the the few of us non-teachers here - is there
> > > a professional association for teachers along the lines on the
> > > Institution of Engineers Australia, the Royal Australian Institue of
> > > Architects, the AMA etc?...
> >
> >It is interesting that the bodies you mention fulfill the role of what
> >the union does for teachers, but as Engineers, Doctors, etc are
> >'professionals', there is a slightly different focus in their
> >associations/institutes.
> Maybe there lies the problem - teachers should think of themselves as
> 'professionals' too. While the IEAust performed some of the
> functions of a union, they were run by working engineers rather than
> career union officials, and had the broad interests of the
> members and the profession as their focus rather than political or IR
> matters. I belonged to unions (such as APEA, MOA, ASU at
> different times) that handled the industrial matters of the day. Both have
> a role to play.
> As a matter of strategy, a professional association probably has more
> clout and better image than a militant union, and could
> achieve better outcomes for teachers in general by lifting the status and
> public perception of teachers.
> rgds
> comrade Jim
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> We have to use this Disclaimer
> Views, opinions, etc. expressed reflect those of the author and not Ruyton
> Girls' School
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Maunder
> Ruyton Girls School
> Melbourne, Australia
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Roland Gesthuizen - ICT Coordinator - Westall Secondary College

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
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