[Informatics] Secondary data

[Russo, Frank R]

So endith the argument or has it ?

I told you once!!

Frank Russo
Mobile: 0409022197
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Teacher:- Computing, Informatics, Robotics, Mathematics & Psychology
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Victoria, Australia

From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Litsa Tzelepis
Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2016 6:23 PM
To: Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Informatics] Secondary data

I guess I just tell my students, "if you see it, hear it, collect it yourself, it's primary". Everyone else's research is secondary.

How can you trust their data collection methods. They're counting cars and they look away to check out the new mustang and miss a whole lot of car counting, or skip a beat or something.

Let's keep it simple. Either way they have to aim to use both sources. And if the difference is that delicate, they should opt to seek more/other sources.

That's how I see it. xx

On Wed., 7 Dec. 2016 at 5:03 pm, Matheson, Heath A <Matheson.Heath.A at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:Matheson.Heath.A at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:
Another way of looking at Primary/Secondary Data Source is:

What/Who is the source?
Is the stuff they are providing you primary or secondary?

The intention is to collect some data that requires processing in order to form conclusions. That word source is really important.

It does appear to be very closely related to collecting data versus information doesn’t it?

Heath

From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au>] On Behalf Of Litsa Tzelepis
Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2016 3:48 PM

To: Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Informatics] Secondary data

hello everyone xx

i found this:

https://www.reference.com/business-finance/difference-between-primary-secondary-data-a8ab630428ba46b#<https://www.reference.com/business-finance/difference-between-primary-secondary-data-a8ab630428ba46b>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Roland Gesthuizen <rgesthuizen at gmail.com<mailto:rgesthuizen at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hmm, a valid point mark but I think we are missing what we want our students to actually do.

If I use the primary data collected by somebody else, say a CSV of raw weather data collected by the BOM without any manipulation  .. does this become secondary because it changed hands? Did I need to sit on the Viking Mars Lander weather station to measure the local climate, collect the raw data stream with my own radar dish, visit JPL to view the data file or download the identical copy here?

To date, I have not heard from anybody that students must be the original collectors, curators and generators of all the research data. Whilst some chose to do this, marching north to knock on doors whilst clutching clipboards, it's a huge challenge to mandate this for all and I think it defeats the intention of the activity.

My guess is that students need to source and use 'original research data' .. untainted by the manipulating touches of any filtering, sorting or even a light breath of formatting. By my understanding, I want to see the students do all of this.

By illustration, whilst I did not collect the weather information that was recorded in the 1800's, I can access the original research data directly from high quality digital scans of the original ship logs, digitise this and conduct an analysis on the original research data. Beyond climbing into a Blue Tardis, this is as primary and real as it gets.

PS: The latter is a real citizen science, crowd sourced project by the way, https://www.oldweather.org .. I am currently at sail in the Indian ocean on a steamer to Africa .. i'll bring back some bananas back to distract Mark.

Regards Roland

On 7 December 2016 at 14:21, Mark <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>> wrote:
Hi Heath

I can't accept that 'secondary' is a synonym for 'processed' and that 'primary' simply means 'unprocessed' or 'raw'.

If that were true, we could just refer to 'data' (unprocessed) and 'information' (processed) and not need the concepts of  'primary' and 'secondary' at all.

Let's go Googling and see what The Real World is saying ...

The first hit on Google<https://www.reference.com/education/primary-secondary-data-5e4a8333252bf73b> for 'primary data' says:
"Primary data is original research that is obtained through first-hand investigation, while secondary data is research that is widely available and obtained from another party. Primary data includes information collected from interviews, experiments, surveys, questionnaires, focus groups and measurements."

The second says:
"Data observed or collected directly from first-hand experience. Published data and the data collected in the past or other parties is called secondary data."  Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/primary-data.html

The third says:
"Primary data is information that you collect specifically for the purpose of your research project. An advantage of primary data is that it is specifically tailored to your research needs. A disadvantage is that it is expensive to obtain... The source of your primary data is the population sample from which you collect the data. "

The fourth says:
"Primary data is original research that is obtained through first-hand investigation, while secondary data is research that is widely available and obtained from another party. Primary data includes information collected from interviews, experiments, surveys, questionnaires, focus groups and measurements. Secondary data can be found in publications, journals and newspapers."

A trend is developing, I believe. For our purposes, I can only logically conclude that:

A primary data source is surveys, questionnaires, observation conducted by the investigator.
A secondary data source is any external provider of data or information that have not been generated by the investigator.

And yes, I am arguing in my spare time.

Mark


On 7 December 2016 at 11:10, Matheson, Heath A <Matheson.Heath.A at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:Matheson.Heath.A at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:
I had a chat with Paula and some other gurus about this the other day.
Mark you are right expect the SAT always uses the term “primary data sources”  which to me is confusing.

We came to the conclusion that primary data sources are where you find raw, unprocessed data, like BOM hourly rainfall or temperature observations. You don’t have to get a rain gauge out to have a primary data source. Of course they can be where you measure it yourself as well. (I would call that primary data collection)

Secondary data sources are where you find processed data, like averages, or opinions or YouTube clips on your topic.

Cheers,
Heath



From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au>] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2016 10:17 PM
To: Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Informatics] Secondary data

Hi Michael.

OK. Re-reading your original post (seven months later) makes me realise that I missed your point entirely.

Secondary data is created by people other than the researcher (regardless of its format - e.g. websites, infographics, other research.)

Primary data is original : designed, gathered, coded and interpreted by the researcher for a specific, tailored purpose.

Data or information gathered from other people's efforts is secondary - even if it is raw data. You, the user, may have no idea what sorts of loaded or leading questions were asked to gather that raw data, how the sample respondents were selectively chosen, or how the data were validated, fudged, or cherry-picked to prove a point. Data collected by someone else may be 'raw' but it does not mean it is authentic, genuine, accurate, complete, unbiased, or trustworthy.

Also - for example - do you count someone else's calculated average as "raw data" or "information"?
Any processing - even a simple 'average' - processes raw data into summary information - and we all know there are three different types of statistical average that can significantly and deliberately skew raw data into information that is convenient for the researcher.

In short...

- If you, the researcher did not do the interviews or write and conduct the surveys, you are using secondary data.
- To collect primary data, one has to use one's own original surveys, questionnaires, observation, sensors, etc.**

My 1.8 cents' worth (end-of-year sale! I have lots more unsold advice going cheaply! Enquire now! Beat the new year price rises!)

I'd be happy to hear of differing interpretations of key knowledge.
Classes have basically finished.
You and I have time for a five minute argument<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y>*.

Mark

* This link is dedicated to a good friend of mine on this list who confesses that she does not understand Monty Python.
I ask you all to wish the poor lass well in her recovery. I fear that she may not even know the bandwidth of African or even European Swallows.

** This is where it gets a bit murky. One might well argue that you can use secondary data to generate new and original primary data for a new purpose. For example, summarising 100 years of death notices in newspapers to track average life expectancies over time. The old newspapers were secondary sources, but when used their information is used to derive new and original data for a new purpose, they would be considered primary sources.

OK. It's not as black and white as most students hope it will be.
Let's just tell them that primary data = home-grown survey, questionnaire, observation.
Secondary data is data from everywhere else.

Room 12A is free.

On 20 May 2016 at 09:27, Poke, Michael C <poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:
Hi all,
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but just wanting to check, can secondary data include information from websites such as infographics, findings from other research, quotable quotes, or does it have to be entirely made up of raw,

unprocessed data?  Sorry for posting what seems like a amateurish question.

Cheers,

Michael


Michael Poke

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 Senior Years Digital Learning Leader

Manor Lakes P-12 College
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Roland Gesthuizen
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