[vet-mm] CERT IV in Workplace Assessment

Allan Barnes abarnes at aiet.com.au
Thu Sep 3 09:49:54 EST 2009

Comments such as this demonstrate the ignorance of some people who have
obviously not considered what is involved in delivering VET qualifications,
or have personal chips on their shoulders and are taking it out for their
own personal reasons (not meaning you of course Kevork).


Let me put it this way - if I rocked up to your school tomorrow without a
Dip Ed but I had a Diploma in Training and Assessment, would you say that I
was suitably qualified to teach junior classes or VCE classes? Assuming your
answer is no, then why not? My Diploma is at the same level as your Diploma?
The answer of course is that the two systems are completely different. You
need a Dip Ed to teach in schools because the course teaches you how to
teach (in theory at least), and you need a Cert IV in Training and
Assessment because it shows you how to train. The two systems are different.


I have completed hundreds and hundreds of RPL claims for secondary school
teachers needing (or wanting) a Cert IV. The attitude demonstrated below is
prevalent in a minority of secondary school teachers until such time as I
ask them what a training package is, or what the AQTF is, or what
competency-based assessment is, or how they can make reasonable adjustments
to their training, or how they can determine training needs, or what
assessment validation is about, or what an assessment tool is, or what an
assessment matrix is,  etc., etc., etc., and they then realize that they do
not in fact have the knowledge and skills required to deliver VET subjects
because this knowledge and skills is not delivered in a Dip Ed, or a
Masters, or  a Doctorate.


People need to understand that secondary schools and VET are two different
industries. Could a Doctor build a bridge? Could an architect perform root
canal on your teeth? Seemingly silly comparisons, but it hopefully
demonstrates the difference between a Dip Ed and a Cert IV.






Kind regards


Allan Barnes, CEO

Australian Institute of Education and Training

P.O. Box 171

Brunswick West 3055

Melbourne, Victoria

Ph: (03) 9387 2051

FAX: (03) 9387 3470

Mobile: 0409 428 221








From: vet-mm-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:vet-mm-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Kevork Krozian
Sent: Thursday, 3 September 2009 9:26 AM
To: vet-it at edulists.com.au; vet-mm at edulists.com.au
Cc: Paul Kingston
Subject: [vet-mm] CERT IV in Workplace Assessment


Hi Folks,


  You all know that I don't like to stir any controversial issues but this
post on whirlpool.net.au got me wondering what others thought about this


TAFE in WA after 1995 decided all teachers to have the Cert IV (Workplace
Assessment). What a lot of rubbish that qualification is! Some of my
colleagues had a Grad Dip Ed, some a Masters deg. in Ed. and some even a
doctorate in Ed., bad luck, they all had to do the Cert IV. TAFE just wanted
to save themselves the teacher training I had to undergo, where I received a
few hours off per week to attend lectures at WAIT (now Curtin uni) in the
evenings but had to put the majority of time in myself. There is no more
teacher training for TAFE teachers, I believe it all has been privatised,
meaning, you pay your $1,000 for this Cert IV rubbish with a private college
to be eligible for TAFE employment.

Great for the bottom line of TAFE.


 So much for teaching and learning, pedagogy and all the professional
standards secondary teachers have to constantly work at whilst TAFE doesn't
have to stress about this ... as much ?


  This really highlights the difficulties between secondaries and TAFEs
working together. One approaches the challenge from teaching and learning
and the other from the dollars, time, funding, with learning outcomes
somewhere down the bottom of the list.

  I am not having a go at the TAFE teachers caught up in the system, just
the policy.


Take Care



Kevork Krozian
Digital Learning Manager
Forest Hill College

k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
Tel: 0419 356 034


From: Paul Kingston [paul at ringwoodsc.vic.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 1 September 2009 9:55 PM
To: Kevork Krozian
Subject: Re: Request for copy of your CERT IV in Workplace Assessment

LOL I have just move 1/2 my office to Ringwood and there is paperwork
everywhere at the moment.  I will try and find it at home if not I hope to
find it at Ringwood tomorrow :)

On 1/09/09 10:17 AM, "Kevork Krozian" <K.Krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au> wrote:

Hi Paul,
Your Cert IV may be valid. The auditor wants a copy of it to check if it is
Can you  by any chance bring it with you on Wednesday so we can fax it for
verification ?
Take Care
Kevork Krozian
Digital Learning Manager
Forest Hill College
k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
Tel: 0419 356 034



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