<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.apple-tab-span
{mso-style-name:apple-tab-span;}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">My understanding is that the only time complexity is involved is for the sorting algorithm. For everything else it is about what is
appropriate for the solution. That been said if the language you use has any inbuilt complex sorting function there is nothing stopping your students from using it and meeting the complexity requirements for sorting algorithms as long as the document the reason
why they are using it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Ben Baas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">-Alkira Secondary College<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>brett fitzsimmons<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 20 June 2016 11:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List' <sofdev@edulists.com.au><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] sorting criteria My thoughts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">An interesting and informative session today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’m still confused as to where the term “complex” fits in as part of a solution. Shouldn’t it be efficient, effective and appropriate? We could make
anything more complex but why should marks be awarded for something that is totally artificial such as sorting arrays of 16 items? Perhaps this would have been better approached as a key skill in Outcome 1. If you teach students how to code a “complex” sorting
algorithm and the complexity, I’m guessing refers to how complex it is to code, then won’t each student use the same approach as I certainly wouldn’t expect them to reinvent the wheel and the tyre?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We are asked to use features of an OO language so where do we draw the line?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is also the question of data structures and complexity. Does a C# Dictionary count as a complex data structure? They are pretty much O(1) for
searching and far easier to use than arrays in many instances.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Brett Fitzsimmons<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Croke, Daryl D<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 20, 2016 10:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] sorting criteria My thoughts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Hi all<br>
<br>
<i>Andrew</i><br>
"I used Hungarian dances to teach sorting", I thought WTF then i found this great playlist on youtube<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIKIf9mHk0&list=PLOmdoKois7_FK-ySGwHBkltzB11snW7KQ" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIKIf9mHk0&list=PLOmdoKois7_FK-ySGwHBkltzB11snW7KQ</a><br>
<br>
<i>Andrew</i><br>
"The young people found that for most of them the actual getting up and moving around was a good idea"<br>
<br>
I will try this in Craigieburn it could be bravest thing I've done since getting students at Preston Girls to act out a While Loop :)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Cheers<br>
<br>
Daryl Croke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Mount Ridley College<br>
8338 3600<br>
<a href="http://mountridleycollege.vic.edu.au/">http://mountridleycollege.vic.edu.au/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">keep on coding</span></i></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://geekstuff.global2.vic.edu.au/">http://geekstuff.global2.vic.edu.au/</a><br>
<a href="http://physicalcomputing.global2.vic.edu.au/">http://physicalcomputing.global2.vic.edu.au/</a></span></i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRpF300778">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] on behalf of Andrew Shortell [shortell@get2me.net]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 20 June 2016 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Year 12 SofDev] sorting criteria My thoughts</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">Hi All <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">been thinking a lot about today’s PD at coburg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">our table discussed the below - are we too harsh, too easy, or in the goldilocks zone?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">in the criteria the students have to document and use a complex sort to obtain a 9 or 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">so the documentation can be the internal doc because very few companies produce a “Tech Ref Guide” they just put stuff on their website and let google etc find it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">so what is a complex sort<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">perhaps start at the other end <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">to get 1 or 2 they should be able to use the built in sort function (properly and put internal doc about it)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">to get 3 or 4 maybe a bubble sort (I taught it because it is so simple and not too hard to get them to understand it)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">to get 5 or 6 maybe a selection sort - documented<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">to get 7 or 8 a quick sort<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">to get 9 or 10 they need to display deeper knowledge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">such as a quick sort is NOT efficient when the sublist size drops below about fifteen so at that point need to do selection (or insertion) sort<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">in visual studio the sort method uses quick-sort to a sublist of 16 then selection sort according to MSDN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">So the sort method in VB is very complex — but using it is so simple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">but I want to see that they can code …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">I used Hungarian dances to teach sorting - even getting students on their feet and “dancing” around ( I cannot remember for sure who found them on youtube originally [was it Mystery Mark? ] but thanks)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">The young people found that for most of them the actual getting up and moving around was a good idea<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">It is also a great way to teach linked lists - not a lot of dancing but my students realised how little movement there is in a linked list!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">more thoughts as they surface<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Andrew Shortell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Educator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">CRC Melton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="redir.aspx?REF=16_hgPM4hV12-RPj-vCKD6EJlfNOthQQ2teclkGfp1nUrCi-ApnTCAFtYWlsdG86c2hvcnRlbGxAZ2V0Mm1lLm5ldA.." target="_blank">shortell@get2me.net</a> (This
List)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">@acsbear8 (twitter)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><b><span lang="EN-GB">Important - </span></b><span lang="EN-GB">This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless
of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions
expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Training.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p></p><p><b>Important - </b>This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Training.</p>
</body>
</html>