Even <b>realer</b> men use COBOL rather than COBAL :-)<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 20 August 2010 10:36, John Schwartz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jschwartz@parade.vic.edu.au">jschwartz@parade.vic.edu.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Nope! Real men use COBAL via punched 80 column cards and rarely actually see the computer.<br>
John<br>
<div class="im"><br>
John Schwartz<br>
Parade College<br>
1436 Plenty Road<br>
Bundoora, Victoria, 3083<br>
Phone: 03 9468 3300<br>
Fax: 03 9467 3937<br>
e-mail: <a href="mailto:jschwartz@parade.vic.edu.au">jschwartz@parade.vic.edu.au</a><br>
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<div class="im">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Laurie Savage [mailto:<a href="mailto:savage.john.l@edumail.vic.gov.au">savage.john.l@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>]<br>
Sent: Friday, 20 August 2010 10:23 AM<br>
To: 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
</div><div class="im">Rubbish, real men use COBOL! On green screens running on a daisy chain<br>
network with the CTOS/Unisys OS.<br>
<br>
Reminds me of a lovely Dilbert cartoon of two old geezers reminiscing about<br>
the days when all you needed to program was ones and zeroes.<br>
<br>
Laurie<br>
<br>
Written from brown paper bag in t'swamp using a Remington typewriter.<br>
<br>
</div><div class="im">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
</div><div class="im">On Behalf Of Don Morelli (Optus)<br>
Sent: Friday, 20 August 2010 9:52 AM<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">To: 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
I am sure that I used Knuth when I did Information Science in 1972 (could be<br>
wrong as I couldn't actually find the book) and I don't know why you guys<br>
use these new fandangled programming languages the blur old well understood<br>
distinctions, as the catch cry in the 70's and mid 80's and should still be,<br>
"Real men use Fortran"<br>
Cheers Don :)<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
On Behalf Of Kevork Krozian<br>
Sent: Thursday, 19 August 2010 11:13 PM<br>
To: 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
Hi Guy,<br>
<br>
Wow this is really getting interesting !!! No, I mean it .... :))<br>
<br>
I wouldn't dare argue with Knuth especially since he was the author of my<br>
Computer Science 101 text at Monash Uni in 1981 .. but<br>
<br>
Check out<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_type" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_type</a><br>
<br>
specifically look for the line:<br>
<br>
Pascal style languages also allow for enumeration to be used as array index<br>
type<br>
cardsuit = (clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades);<br>
var<br>
suitcount: array [cardsuit] of integer;<br>
<br>
I used this enumerated type as the index for many arrays in my early years<br>
using Pascal such as<br>
<br>
type<br>
month = (jan, feb, mar, apr, may, jun, jul, aug, sep, oct, nov, dec);<br>
var<br>
rainfall: array [month] of real;<br>
Also, quoting further from the Wikipedia source above,<br>
"<br>
The order in which the enumeration values are given matters. An enumerated<br>
type is an ordinal type, and the pred and succ functions will give the prior<br>
or next value of the enumeration, and ord can convert enumeration values to<br>
their integer representation. Standard Pascal does not offer a conversion<br>
from arithmetic types to enumerations, however. Extended Pascal offers this<br>
functionality via an extended succ function. Some other Pascal dialects<br>
allow it via type-casts. Some modern descendants of Pascal, such as<br>
Modula-3, provide a special conversion syntax using a method called VAL;<br>
Modula-3 also treats BOOLEAN and CHAR as special pre-defined enumerated<br>
types and uses ORD and VAL for standard ASCII decoding and encoding."<br>
<br>
Admittedly I have neither tried or investigated this implementation with<br>
other languages but Delphi users out there can perhaps tell us if it is also<br>
found in that implementation since the VCAA advice refers to Pascal and<br>
similar languages such as Delphi.<br>
<br>
<br>
Kind Regards<br>
<br>
Kevork Krozian<br>
Edulists Creator Administrator<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
tel: 0419 356 034<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
On Behalf Of Guy Flaherty<br>
Sent: Thursday, 19 August 2010 11:01 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
Kevork,<br>
<br>
Wikipedia states that the index for an array is an integer based one and<br>
provides references from Donald Knuth and Paul E. Black to support this.<br>
It states that this index is required to be used when calculating the<br>
address of the memory location for each item in the array. This actually<br>
is explained to be one of the general differentiators between an array<br>
and a record, in that an array's memory addresses can be computed at<br>
run-time using the integer index and a record's cannot be easily<br>
computed at run-time.<br>
<br>
I think it would be a brave list to argue against Knuth ;) I am not sure<br>
if I am helping anyone here :D<br>
<br>
Guy Flaherty<br>
<br>
>>> "Kevork Krozian" 19/08/10 10:05 PM >>><br>
Hi Folks,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Just watching from the sidelines at present and having a feeling of déjà<br>
vu. There are quite a few examples of definitions that have<br>
disadvantaged my<br>
students in the past not least in the role and functions of networking<br>
components (hubs vs switches, modems and routers and firewalls and virus<br>
protection etc ) as well as data types in programming definitions.<br>
<br>
The last time I used Pascal was around 1995 or so at least in so far as<br>
programming at Year 12.<br>
<br>
Sure I used records of files but more commonly found records as a single<br>
line in a database which we are not allowed to use in our programming. I<br>
haven't heard of a file of records for many years - only a database of<br>
records. Perhaps, I will leave that discussion for another time.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
More generally and this is related to the definition used by Adrian here<br>
,<br>
the index for an array does not have to be an integer. It can be any<br>
enumerated type eg. Inbuilt ones such as characters defined by say the<br>
ASCII<br>
sequence, meaning 'a' , 'b' , 'c' ,'d' etc can be used to index an array<br>
or<br>
a user defined enumerated range eg. 'Jan', 'Feb' , 'Mar', 'Apr' etc can<br>
also<br>
be used to index an array.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I also come from the Fortran, Pascal, Cobol, C, Prolog, Java, PHP,<br>
Python,<br>
Visual C# pathway in my programming development and have had to make the<br>
transition into new areas of programming where the older definitions are<br>
no<br>
longer uniformly found in all languages. That would be the evolution of<br>
programming and the blurring of the definitions of data types akin to<br>
the<br>
analogy of applications that blur the lines that used to separate them (<br>
think Word Processors, spreadsheets and databases).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Take Care<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevork Krozian<br>
<br>
Edulists Creator Administrator<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
<br>
tel: 0419 356 034<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
On Behalf Of Janson, Adrian A<br>
Sent: Thursday, 19 August 2010 8:54 PM<br>
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi everyone,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I know that some of you were happy with the definitions I posted before,<br>
and<br>
I do want to keep them simple - but, how about this:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One-Dimensional Arrays<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A one dimensional (or 1D) array is a data structure in which variables<br>
are<br>
grouped together under the same name and accessed via a number known as<br>
the<br>
'index'. Although an array typically contains only one data type, it<br>
can<br>
consist of multiple data types (as is possible in some languages such as<br>
PHP<br>
and Python).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
....<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Records<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A record is a structure that can be used to group together variables for<br>
a<br>
particular purpose. Records are similar to arrays but whereas an array<br>
usually contains elements all of the same type, the variables within a<br>
record are usually of different types and sizes. Indexing the elements<br>
of a<br>
record is often done via an identifier which is declared at the same<br>
time as<br>
the record.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The important thing - as some have stated already, is for us to be able<br>
to<br>
tell students: 'this is the standard definition of an array and a<br>
record'.<br>
So if a student were asked on the exam 'what is an array', they could<br>
answer<br>
'an array is a data structure in<br>
which variables are grouped together<br>
under<br>
the same name and accessing using an index number'. - and get full<br>
marks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Adrian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Adrian Janson B.Sc, Dip.Ed, M.Ed<br>
Director of ICT<br>
Melbourne High School, Forrest Hill, South Yarra, Victoria 3141<br>
Australia.<br>
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<br>
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au">janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</a><br>
<br>
Blog: <a href="http://jansona.edublogs.org" target="_blank">http://jansona.edublogs.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_____<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> on behalf of David Dawson<br>
Sent: Thu 19/08/2010 8:46 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Records and Arrays<br>
<br>
What a fascinating discussion this is! (No I mean it!)<br>
When I started teaching Pascal in 1998 - I was so confused by "records"<br>
- and came to see them as "customised data types" and - having just<br>
learnt some Java and C++ - I figured they were really like Classes - or<br>
even objects.<br>
In any case I have not come up against this mysterious "data structure"<br>
in the other languages I have explored - in C they are constructed and<br>
can be called anything - and I bet that the library file could be<br>
renamed ""list_o_stuff" - even in Pascal.<br>
I prefer PHP at present and in PHP - like so many languages - the thing<br>
people seem to miss is that in "weakly typed languages" everything just<br>
starts as a String and is dealt with "contextually" as someone cleverly<br>
pointed out earlier. If there are numbers we wish to multiply the<br>
language figures this out by our operations - very smooth!<br>
An array is a list defined by a computer language to store temporary<br>
Strings! Some languages limit these - if they insist on strong variable<br>
typing.<br>
I really hope records are just amended out of any reference in the study<br>
design.<br>
IMHO they died 10 years ago!<br>
<br>
David Dawson<br>
Head of Information Technology Learning Area<br>
Head of Learning Technologies<br>
St Kilda Rd Campus<br>
Wesley College<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark Kelly<br>Manager - Information Systems; Reporting Manager<br>McKinnon Secondary College<br>McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085<br>
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Author - VCE IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br><br>Korma: the philosophy that what you get out of a curry depends on what you put into it.<br>