[Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion

Mark Kelly kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Thu Oct 16 11:52:46 EST 2008


I'd be happy to collate feedback I see on this list and ITA, and year 11.

Allan Barnes wrote:
> Towards the end of each cycle of the accreditation period there is an 
> opportunity to provide comments and suggested alterations to the study 
> design. Perhaps the VCAA and/or VITTA could publicise this opportunity 
> so that people can nominate to be on the committee, or a process can be 
> set up whereby comments are fed through to a representative to present 
> to the committee .
> 
>  
> 
> Having been on the committee myself once in the past, I found it very 
> useful, especially in terms of discussing what should be covered in the 
> course with people from industry, TAFE and University to get their 
> perspective on what needs to be covered. And the VCAA did listen to our 
> concerns and did incorporate many of our suggestions into the previous 
> study design.
> 
>
> 
> Kind regards
> 
>  
> 
> Allan Barnes, CEO
> 
> Australian Institute of Education and Training
> 
> P.O. Box 171
> 
> Brunswick West 3055
> 
> Ph: (03) 9387 2051
> 
> FAX: (03) 9387 3470
> 
> Mobile: 0409 428 221
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au 
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Shortell
> *Sent:* Thursday, 16 October 2008 9:23 AM
> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion
> 
>  
> 
> A better question would be
> 
> “Why are they so vague?”
> 
> And then
> 
> “What is the purpose of the lack of precision in a subject that is 
> mostly about being precise?”
> 
>  
> 
> The answers to those questions would illuminate many of the areas of 
> confusion…….  
> 
> So talk to people who were on the panel of the current study design
> 
>  
> 
> Andrew Shortell
> 
> Braemar College
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au 
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 15 October 2008 3:10 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion
> 
>  
> 
> Another excellent reason for having a properly
> 
> defined course.  Our current VCAA statements
> 
> only breed confusion and inefficiency.  They wast
> 
> out time and there students time, esp. when there
> 
> is precious little time to spare.  But no
> 
> one ever seems to listen or respond.
> 
>  
> 
> Russell Quinn
> 
>  
> 
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Tue 14/10/2008 1:00 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4
> 
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> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  
> 
>    1. RE: Database question (Quentin Lydall)
> 
>    2. Re: Database question (Mark Kelly)
> 
>    3. Re: Special thanks to Associate Professor Steven Bird
> 
>       (Kevork Krozian)
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> Message: 1
> 
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:10:07 +1100
> 
> From: "Quentin Lydall" <qly at beaconhills.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
> 
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Message-ID:
> 
>         <AFC3563D81D1044097735D5F6A3DBBE5014D7B6E at valley02.Beaconhills.beaconhills.vic.edu.au>
> 
>         
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="UTF-8"
> 
>  
> 
> I agree.  Students should understand normalization, primary and foreign keys, lookup tables, data types and their  properties, etc. There just is a fundamental logic error in the formulation of this answer, in a database context.  Maybe it was done late at night..
> 
>  
> 
> Quentin Lydall
> 
> Head of ICT
> 
> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
> 
> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
> 
> Pakenham
> 
> 3810
> 
> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
> 
>  Please consider the environment before printing my emailP
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Steven Bird
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2008 11:58 AM
> 
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
> 
> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
> 
>> Yes – quite correct.  My students spotted this as well.  The x5 is not
> 
>> required.
> 
>  
> 
> There's some other problems though.  A database with 20,000 customers
> 
> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
> 
> these take space.  Nightly dumps take space as well.  If the question
> 
> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
> 
> are relevant.
> 
>  
> 
> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
> 
> customer record (cf [1]).  Instead a customer record should contain a
> 
> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2].  We're told
> 
> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
> 
> have to deal with a dozen postcodes.  That table would be a constant
> 
> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
> 
> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
> 
>  
> 
> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
> 
> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
> 
> bits.
> 
>  
> 
> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
> 
> importance of avoiding duplication in a database.  It would also be
> 
> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
> 
>  
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
> 
> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip
> 
>  
> 
> -Steven Bird
> 
> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
> 
>  
> 
>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all customers
> 
>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local area.
> 
>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000 customers, but
> 
>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How much
> 
>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records for the
> 
>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
> 
>> First Name – 50 characters
> 
>> Last Name – 50 characters
> 
>> Address – 100 characters
> 
>> Suburb – 50 characters
> 
>> Phone number – 10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
> 
>> Email address – 50 characters
> 
>> Postcode – 4 characters
> 
>> Number of coupons received – 32-bit number
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> The solution gives D with the explanation
> 
>> 
> 
>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
> 
>> 
> 
>> 328
> 
>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
> 
>> 
> 
>> Why multiply by 5?  Would the company recreate the entire records each
> 
>> year?  I'd design it differently..
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> Appreciate your help.
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> Quentin Lydall
> 
>> Head of ICT
> 
>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
> 
>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
> 
>> Pakenham
> 
>> 3810
> 
>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
> 
>> 
> 
>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
> 
>> 
> 
>  
> 
> #####################################################################################
> 
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom 
> 
> it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and 
> 
> do not necessarily represent those of Beaconhills College. If you are not the 
> 
> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that 
> 
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly 
> 
> prohibited.
> 
> If you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills College 
> 
> by telephone on (+61 3)  1300 002 225.
> 
> #####################################################################################
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> Message: 2
> 
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:51:48 +1100
> 
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
> 
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Message-ID: <48F3FB34.3010003 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
>  
> 
> I see what you mean, but I think the question writer just used a 
> 
> database as a vehicle for interrogating students' knowledge of number 
> 
> types.
> 
>  
> 
> Since database structure is not part of the study design, a question 
> 
> that required knowledge of indexes, normalisation, and relational links 
> 
> etc could not, IMO, be justified.
> 
>  
> 
> 2 cents worth (and devaluing rapidly).  Only a year without teaching SD 
> 
> and my memory of it is getting rusty already!
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark
> 
>  
> 
> Steven Bird wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
> 
>> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
> 
>>> Yes  quite correct.  My students spotted this as well.  The x5 is not
> 
>>> required.
> 
>> 
> 
>> There's some other problems though.  A database with 20,000 customers
> 
>> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
> 
>> these take space.  Nightly dumps take space as well.  If the question
> 
>> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
> 
>> are relevant.
> 
>> 
> 
>> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
> 
>> customer record (cf [1]).  Instead a customer record should contain a
> 
>> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2].  We're told
> 
>> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
> 
>> have to deal with a dozen postcodes.  That table would be a constant
> 
>> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
> 
>> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
> 
>> 
> 
>> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
> 
>> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
> 
>> bits.
> 
>> 
> 
>> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
> 
>> importance of avoiding duplication in a database.  It would also be
> 
>> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
> 
>> 
> 
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
> 
>> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip
> 
>> 
> 
>> -Steven Bird
> 
>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
> 
>> 
> 
>>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all customers
> 
>>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local area.
> 
>>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000 customers, but
> 
>>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How much
> 
>>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records for the
> 
>>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
> 
>>> First Name  50 characters
> 
>>> Last Name  50 characters
> 
>>> Address  100 characters
> 
>>> Suburb  50 characters
> 
>>> Phone number  10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
> 
>>> Email address  50 characters
> 
>>> Postcode  4 characters
> 
>>> Number of coupons received  32-bit number
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> The solution gives D with the explanation
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 328
> 
>>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Why multiply by 5?  Would the company recreate the entire records each
> 
>>> year?  I'd design it differently..
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Appreciate your help.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Quentin Lydall
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Head of ICT
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Pakenham
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 3810
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> ________________________________
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> 
>>> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are
> 
>>> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
> 
>>> Beaconhills College.  If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that
> 
>>> you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination,
> 
>>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.  If
> 
>>> you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills College by
> 
>>> telephone on (+61 3)  1300 002 225.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> ________________________________
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
> 
>>> supported by
> 
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> 
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> 
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers
> 
>>> Association Inc
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received
> 
>>> in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using
> 
>>> attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss,
> 
>>> damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or
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>>> Development.
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>>> 
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
> 
>>> supported by
> 
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> 
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> 
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers
> 
>>> Association Inc
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
> 
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
> 
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> 
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> 
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Mark Kelly
> 
> Manager - Information Systems
> 
> McKinnon Secondary College
> 
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> 
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> 
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
> 
> School Fax +613 95789253
> 
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> 
>  
> 
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> 
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> 
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
> 
>  
> 
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> Message: 3
> 
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:58:39 +1100
> 
> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Special thanks to Associate Professor
> 
>         Steven Bird
> 
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Message-ID: <48F497EE.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Steven,
> 
>  
> 
>     I think we are very fortunate and privileged to have your time and
> 
> expertise on these lists. 
> 
>  
> 
> I am sure you have other pressing demands on your time not least of
> 
> which in your lecturing and related duties in the Uni of Melbourne
> 
> Computer Science faculty and other projects, research and activities you
> 
> are working on as recorded on http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/ .
> 
>  
> 
> Your explanations and insights into implications of certain questions
> 
> on both the final and practice exams in Software Development can only
> 
> help us all to become better teachers if for no other reason than the
> 
> seed it plants to think about problems from another perspective and
> 
> hopefully continue the discussion and seek further clarification.
> 
>  
> 
>  So on behalf of the list membership, please keep your comments coming
> 
> and thanks for your time.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Kevork Krozian
> 
> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
> 
> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
> 
> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
> 
> Mobile: 0419 356 034
> 
>  
> 
>>>> "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au> 14/10/2008 11:57 am >>>
> 
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
> 
> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
> 
>> Yes * quite correct.  My students spotted this as well.  The x5 is
> 
> not
> 
>> required.
> 
>  
> 
> There's some other problems though.  A database with 20,000 customers
> 
> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
> 
> these take space.  Nightly dumps take space as well.  If the question
> 
> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
> 
> are relevant.
> 
>  
> 
> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
> 
> customer record (cf [1]).  Instead a customer record should contain a
> 
> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2].  We're told
> 
> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
> 
> have to deal with a dozen postcodes.  That table would be a constant
> 
> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
> 
> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
> 
>  
> 
> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
> 
> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
> 
> bits.
> 
>  
> 
> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
> 
> importance of avoiding duplication in a database.  It would also be
> 
> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
> 
>  
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization 
> 
> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip 
> 
>  
> 
> -Steven Bird
> 
> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/ 
> 
>  
> 
>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all
> 
> customers
> 
>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local
> 
> area.
> 
>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000
> 
> customers, but
> 
>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How
> 
> much
> 
>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records
> 
> for the
> 
>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
> 
>> First Name * 50 characters
> 
>> Last Name * 50 characters
> 
>> Address * 100 characters
> 
>> Suburb * 50 characters
> 
>> Phone number * 10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
> 
>> Email address * 50 characters
> 
>> Postcode * 4 characters
> 
>> Number of coupons received * 32-bit number
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> The solution gives D with the explanation
> 
>> 
> 
>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
> 
>> 
> 
>> 328
> 
>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
> 
>> 
> 
>> Why multiply by 5?  Would the company recreate the entire records
> 
> each
> 
>> year?  I'd design it differently..
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> Appreciate your help.
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> Quentin Lydall
> 
>> 
> 
>> Head of ICT
> 
>> 
> 
>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
> 
>> 
> 
>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
> 
>> 
> 
>> Pakenham
> 
>> 
> 
>> 3810
> 
>> 
> 
>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
> 
>> 
> 
>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> ________________________________
> 
>> 
> 
>> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> 
>> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
> 
> are
> 
>> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
> 
>> Beaconhills College.  If you are not the intended recipient, be
> 
> advised that
> 
>> you have received this email in error and that any use,
> 
> dissemination,
> 
>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
> 
> prohibited.  If
> 
>> you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills
> 
> College by
> 
>> telephone on (+61 3)  1300 002 225.
> 
>> 
> 
>> ________________________________
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
> 
>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List
> 
> kindly
> 
>> supported by
> 
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> 
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> 
>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology
> 
> Teachers
> 
>> Association Inc
> 
>> 
> 
>> Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If
> 
> received
> 
>> in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or
> 
> using
> 
>> attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any
> 
> loss,
> 
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McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
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kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au

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Most people don't realise that small kitchen sponges, when nailed to the 
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