[Year 12 SofDev] SACs and more
Mark Kelly
kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Wed Mar 12 08:21:29 EST 2008
Hi Kevork. I do take your point about accuracy of information.
The difficulty can lie in trying to get it all squeezed into the class
time available.
There are a LOT of dotpoints in the key knowledge and, as you know, most
of them could keep a uni student busy for 3 years if they followed the
topic in depth.
ciao
Marcus
Kevork Krozian wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I have been dragged to a large number of Sainter games by close friends so I understand
> the emotion you express here .......
>
> OK, the study design says nothing about packets or frames ....
>
> but exam questions requiring explanations about network devices would suggest the student needs to use correct technical language
> eg.
> Q3 Section B 2006 asks
> Describe the major difference between a switch and a modem on a network.
>
> and
>
> Q12 Section B 2005
> Selection of some network components ( router, switch etc ) , and explain its function.
>
> Student selects a switch and proceeds to describe what a switch does with packets .... which switches have no understanding of as switches only understand frames.
> Does the examiner/marker decide that the student doesn't really understand switches ?
>
> Nothing magical or super about a frame and a packet . One is a larger envelope ( frame ) into which the smaller envelope ( packet ) is placed as the data is passed down all the way to the wire ( or wireless ). Different envelopes for different devices to help each find the source and destination as efficiently as possible.
>
> Not wanting to flog this to death ( but you have already I hear everyone shout ) , but if I , me , myself was standing in front of a class I know that I like to know the difference.
>
> But then again, I am kind of strange........ and neither medication nor therapy has been able to cure the condition .....:))
>
> Adios for now
>
> Kevork
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 11/03/2008 1:55 pm >>>
> Ah, Sainters. It's the only thing they'll win all season, knowing them.
> Anyway.
>
> Frames... yes, I remember frames, but I've never brought them up in SD.
> For the momen I
>
> 'll attribute it to "Too Much Information" (but more
> honestly I haven't even thought of frames since Novell Netware IPX/SPX
> days...)
>
> And I've managed to get away with never mentioning the OSI model, but at
> least I've occasionally felt a touch guilty about that one :-)
>
> It's sometimes tough deciding when you're heading into TMI territory,
> but I believe in the Study Design and have already written to the prime
> minister that the key knowledge dot points of SD U3O1 be written into
> the national anthem.
>
> If the SDSD (Software Development Study Design) explicitly mentioned
> frames or OSI, I'd make sure I covered them.
>
> Anyway, I think most teachers don't write SACs because they're scared
> they'll muck them up and get into trouble, and there's some
> justification for their nervousness. I'm sure those who develop their
> confidence enough will naturally progress into modifying and then
> creating their own SACs as a matter of course.
>
> I started last year modifying and using Adrian's U3O1, and then writing
> my own U3O2 based on an idea in the SDSD. It's nice to have someone's
> hand to hold when you're starting off :-)
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark
>
>
> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I just heard St Kilda won so we can resume the discussion ..... :))
>>
>> Obviously we don't expect our SD kids to work at the tech level ..... and the course is not built for techs.
>>
>> But, it takes knowledge to simplify a concept. Eg. Why do routers use packets and switches use frames ?
>> What is the difference between a packet and a frame ? What do you mean you need line of sight for some wireless technologies ?
>>
>> SACs 31 and 42 - fully 50% of the SAC marks for the year - are based on networking.
>>
>> If a teacher can't write a SAC after viewing a number of them then there is a problem.
>> Hey, maybe we need a SAC advisory line for those struggling with these tasks.
>> Before we go rewriting them though we should have a checklist of skills and knowledge the teachers need to have before escalating the task.
>>
>> For a while I have been working on a draft of a few PD activities:
>>
>> 1. EVERYTHING you need to know about Information System networking for VCE IT.
>> 2. ALL the IT skills and knowledge you need to start your own business for our VCAL students.
>>
>>
>> It is the "art" of how to teach these concepts and to what level and what skills you need as a teacher that is the struggle.
>>
>> We haven't heard enough from teachers struggling to write their own SACs as to where they are having problems, partly because I feel it might be an individual fear that
>> it is an admission of inadequacy or fear of making a mistake.
>>
>> Here is an offer. We can collect data anonymously. Should we try to set up a web page to do this ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevork Krozian
>> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
>> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
>> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
>> Mobile: 0419 356 034
>>
>>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 8/03/2008 9:06 pm >>>
>> Hi Kevork. It's interesting being in my MIS position and teaching the
>> kids. I obviously can't have a technical understanding to the level
>> that my techies must have, but I have to be able to question them and
>> work out the fundamentals of what they are doing, their issues and new
>> developments. e.g. They recently dropped the bombshell that DAT tapes
>> are far from the reliable backup nirvana I had believed. They wanted to
>> try doing trickle-backups over the web continuously to a nearby
>> secondary college, while that college would do the same with us.
>> Fascinating!
>>
>> And trickle-backups is not an official term. I made it up. I hope it
>> appears in the study design glossary after I die :-)
>>
>> Being able to boil down the technicians' technobabble into a form that I
>> can then use to plan for the future is exactly the level of
>> understanding kids need in class. e.g. I know switches are better than
>> hubs because they can 'read' packets' destinations and direct them in
>> the right direction without broadcasting. Beyond that, I don't need to
>> know a lot more. I hope...
>>
>> But when I realise I do need to know more, I do more research. e.g.
>> whether a cable modem is or is not actually modulating/demodulating - an
>> issue we discussed last year, I believe.
>>
>> The problem I find is that if I get TOO informed, it can be hard to draw
>> a line when choosing how much detail to give kids. I fear some real
>> specialists may get lost in the intricacies of their arts and forget the
>> relatively-basic needs and abilities of their students.
>>
>> But then again, it's always good to know a little MORE detail than
>> necessary in case kids ask curly questions (e.g. "You said phone lines
>> can only carry analogue modem data at a max theoretical download speed
>> of 56Kbps, so how does ADSL go so much faster on the same phone lines?")
>>
>> I guess the art is knowing what the kids need to know, what *you* need
>> to know, and how to know when to stop telling them all you know.
>>
>> Anyway, gotta check if St Kilda is losing the pre-season grand final or
>> not. I fear they are :-(
>>
>> Toodles
>> Mark
>>
>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> I guess my point is you have had 10 more years of experience as MIS than
>>> many SD teachers presenting in front of classes in Victoria.
>>> As for the programming , your initiative is what has got you where you
>>> are. Mine was a formal Comp Sci degree circa early 80s, but all I do and
>>> use now I have had to learn, unlearn and relearn.
>>> All that I still use from my formal degree days is the idea of efficient
>>> processing ( database back end for data gathering rather than
>>> intermittent emails arriving with information that needs to be organised
>>> to make any use of it) , knowledge of numerical computations ( how
>>> mathematical functions are approximated in computers ), data structures
>>> ( files, arrays, records, pointers, trees etc ) , sorting/searching
>>> algorithms and more of the same.
>>> I had to learn about networking on the job as IT manager which began
>>> around 1992 and the rest of the Study Design through each change every 3
>>> - 4 years.
>>> Ultimately it is real life experience that reinforces understanding.
>>> Even networking instructors don't fully understand the theory unless
>>> they are working with the hardware and software. Eg. Frame Relay is a
>>> WAN topic I teach in Cisco but don't feel great about as I have never
>>> used it nor seen it in action. By contrast, ADSL, ISDN, VPN is
>>> technology I have and do use and can teach with confidence.
>>>
>>> Keep well
>>>
>>> Kevork Krozian
>>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>
>>>
>>>> I've been a MIS at McKinnon since 1998.
>>>>
>>>> I taught myself BASIC on a 4K RAM TRS-80 in 1978 and spent too many
>>>> hours over 20 years on various platforms including Apple ][, Vic-20,
>>>> Commodore 64, Microbee, Amiga, PC and a Cyber mainframe playing with
>>>> flavours of BASIC, C, Pascal, COBOL, 6502 and Z80 machine code and
>>>> assembly language.
>>>>
>>>> I still remember 42E9 as the starting point of the BASIC interpreter
>>>> in the TRS-80 ROM. Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know your degree is in English and Psych but for how long have you
>>>>> been a network manager ?
>>>>> and how /when did you learn programming ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind Regards
>>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>>>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kelly"
>>>>> <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 5:14 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a BA in English and Psych - does that count?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be really helpful to know what PD audiences really wanted
>>>>>> to hear. Perhaps VITTA could pre-test people signing up for PD to
>>>>>> find what 'favour' they want the PD to be. e.g. "Networking facts"
>>>>>> vs "How to teach networking".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember at the start of the 2003 study design I suggested to
>>>>>> VITTA that teachers needed to be taught networking theory rather
>>>>>> than how to teach networking to kids, and it was a big hit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without the knowledge of what an audience really wants to hear, I
>>>>>> often have to guess and try to cover 3 areas of interest in one
>>>>>> long, fast presentation, hoping to satisfy everyone at least part of
>>>>>> the time*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even teacher PD is a mixed ability classroom :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * the story of my love life :-(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Theresa,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your honesty in stating it is ok to admit not to know the
>>>>>>> technical stuff and this from someone with an info systems degree.
>>>>>>> Do all
>>>>>>> our SD teachers have a degree in the area ?
>>>>>>> And if you are not comfortable with the technical stuff - do I
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> VPN, client server, WAN technologies, and more here? -- then how many
>>>>>>> more without quals feel even less comfortable ?
>>>>>>> I concur with your sentiments about the breaking down of the study
>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>> with little specificity being of little value. Yes, the VITTA CD
>>>>>>> has gone
>>>>>>> a long way to addressing the lack of specific sample work but there
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> been some quality assurance issues related to this.
>>>>>>> Futhermore, there is no point in everyone doing the same VITTA
>>>>>>> sample
>>>>>>> SAC from the CD. It is just repeating the problem using a different
>>>>>>> source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Keep well
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>>>>> Mailing List Administrator
>>>>>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regards to the present topic, I have a degree in Information
>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>> and am confident with teaching the theory of Systems analysis and
>>>>>>>> design, but feel nervous with some of the technical stuff because
>>>>>>>> it has
>>>>>>>> changed so much in the past five years since I last taught IS so I
>>>>>>>> signed up to the recent VITTA workshops. I was dissapointed with the
>>>>>>>> workshops, which basically did no more than break down the Study
>>>>>>>> design,
>>>>>>>> something I can do myself. I feel that some more specific PD for
>>>>>>>> networking, modelling and even programming - like building
>>>>>>>> programs for
>>>>>>>> portable devices would really be more helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Theresa Gate
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 6 March 2008 11:42 AM
>>>>>>>> To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Re: Why aren't teachers able to write their own material ?
>>>>>>>> (Kevork Krozian)
>>>>>>>> 2. Re: Copyright / authorship / solutions / ?? (Mark Kelly)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:32:07 +1100
>>>>>>>> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Why aren't teachers able to write
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> own material ?
>>>>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <47CFD635.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Adrian and Mark,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very good points but more broadly a symptom of a wider problem we
>>>>>>>> keep avoiding.
>>>>>>>> If teachers are not confident about assessing a topic ( to say
>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>> about teaching it effectively ) then we need to address this issue.
>>>>>>>> I know we are all overworked but if we are teaching a class we
>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> be fair to the students and ourselves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In reality if you are not an active network manager or Cisco
>>>>>>>> instructor, you would struggle to understand networks and maybe
>>>>>>>> not know
>>>>>>>> a bus network even if you were run over by one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know VITTA and the VCAA almost do miracles ( not least in their
>>>>>>>> active and meaningful support of Edulists and PD ) but why are
>>>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>>>> unable to write their own SACs with confidence and conviction and
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> solutions they can show others ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would say because the training and the need for new and current
>>>>>>>> training has not kept up with the demands of the course(s). What
>>>>>>>> do we
>>>>>>>> do about this ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we need to stop patching these problems with band aids
>>>>>>>> and need
>>>>>>>> to go up the tree (DEECD, the new Rudd govt. initiative or
>>>>>>>> wherever else
>>>>>>>> we need to go) where there is decent and proper funding to deliver
>>>>>>>> updated courses and training rather than doing it on the cheap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't want to drag down decent hardworking teachers doing the best
>>>>>>>> they can with what little they have - I want to lift them .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kevork
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 6/03/2008 8:28 am >>>
>>>>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial
>>>>>>>> practice SD
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>>>>> SAC
>>>>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author*. As I put
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> as best I could. I don*t mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own
>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now - I don*t mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>>>>> use. I
>>>>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>>>>> students a
>>>>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and
>>>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the
>>>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your
>>>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>>> attribution
>>>>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>>>>>>> by some
>>>>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>>>>> for their
>>>>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an
>>>>>>>>> addendum at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>>>>> as it
>>>>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>>>>>>> - for
>>>>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>>>>> diagram
>>>>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>>>>> report.
>>>>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons;
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line /
>>>>>>>> Voicemail:
>>>>>>>> 8520 9085 School Phone +613 8520 9000 School Fax +613 95789253 kel AT
>>>>>>>> mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au IT Lecture notes:
>>>>>>>> http://vceit.com
>>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook
>>>>>>>> raffle to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:36:38 +1100
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>>>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <47CF3C96.1000409 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah - I didn't notice you were chasing SD stuff... I assumed it was
>>>>>>>> ITA.
>>>>>>>> I don't know if there are SD QATs. Your best bet is to check the
>>>>>>>> VITTA resources. There are SD SACs there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will attach the U3 outcomes I used last year, which were
>>>>>>>> approved by
>>>>>>>> VCAA during their audit of my material.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fatima Nazar wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have looked into QATs and even sent them an email (no reply as
>>>>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>>> about SD - I am brand new to SD and would LOVE to even buy some SACs
>>>>>>>> with suggested solutions as I would then know what can be an
>>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>>> answer :) so let me know if you have some up your sleeve please
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Fatima
>>>>>>>>> (have 2 SD classes)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thu 3/6/2008 8:28 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions
>>>>>>>>> / ??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial
>>>>>>>>> practice SD
>>>>>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>>>>> SAC
>>>>>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a
>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be
>>>>>>>>>> adapted or
>>>>>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author.... As
>>>>>>>>>> I put
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I
>>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>> as best I could. I don't mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own
>>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now - I don't mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>>>>> students a
>>>>>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and
>>>>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the
>>>>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your
>>>>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload -
>>>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the
>>>>>>>>>> bigger
>>>>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>>> attribution
>>>>>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove
>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing
>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later
>>>>>>>>>> 'improved'
>>>>>>>> by some
>>>>>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering
>>>>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>>>>> for their
>>>>>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an
>>>>>>>>>> addendum at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>>>>> as it
>>>>>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the
>>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>> - for
>>>>>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>>>>> diagram
>>>>>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it
>>>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network
>>>>>>>>>>> diagram). You
>>>>>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>>>>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>>>>> report.
>>>>>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained
>>>>>>>>>>> assessment
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two
>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I
>>>>>>>>>>>> would do
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few
>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons; I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>>>>>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>>>>>>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>>>>>>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>>>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook
>>>>>>>>> raffle to
>>>>>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> -
>>>>>>>>> Victorian
>>>>>>>> Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>> 1/03/2008 5:41 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
>>>>>>>> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>>>>>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
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>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> b/SDU3O22007-vangogo-v5.doc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> sofdev mailing list
>>>>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>>>> **************************************
>>>>>>>> ******************************************************************************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **** NOTICE FROM Gordon Institute of TAFE ****
>>>>>>>> This message is confidential, and may contain proprietary or legally
>>>>>>>> privileged information. If you have received this email in error,
>>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>>> notify the sender and delete it immediately. Please take appropriate
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>>>>>>>> of TAFE under no circumstances accepts liability for any loss or
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>>>>>>>> which may result from your receipt of this message or any
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>>>>>>>> ******************************************************************************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>>> Authority
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>>> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that
>>>>>> is worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>>>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>> Authority and
>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>
>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
buy a new bomber.
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