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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hello all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There is a good reason for going for 1NF first: you
cannot be 2NF without first being 1NF, and you cannot be 3NF without first being
2NF.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>So, asking a question about 1NF seems quite
reasonable because that's where it all starts (by the way, I haven't
seen the question yet so I cannot comment on its quality).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>And if you don't know what the normal forms are,
how can it happen as part of 'sensible' design? So, at least at a definitional
level, students need to know what 1NF, 2NF and 3NF are. As to whether they
should be able to move from one to another is a different question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Robert T-A</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=robert@yinnar.com href="mailto:robert@yinnar.com">Robert Hind</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 09, 2014 1:09
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Exam:
1NF???</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I'd like to pick up on this point:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Isn't it ideal to design databases to be 3NF compliant
in the first instance? Why bother with this step? Is the purpose of this
question to merely see if students instance what 1NF is? "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have been involved with teaching IT and also with
database design for many years. Have never taught normalisation or even
thought about it as a process. It just happens as part of (sensible) database
design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The whole idea of 1NF, and afterwards 2NF and 3NF, goes
back to Codd in 1971. Surely by now we should be designing databases along
sensible lines that do end up with "3NF compliant" databases but frankly
without all that hassle about "normalisation"as a process in
itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Robert Hind<BR>Retired<BR>Ex Traralgon and
Ashwood</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Exam: 1NF???</DIV>
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<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 7 November 2014 22:42, Poke, Michael C <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:poke.michael.c@edumail.vic.gov.au"
target=_blank>poke.michael.c@edumail.vic.gov.au</A>></SPAN> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><snip><BR>
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<DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr>But my one main issue is with this 1NF question. My simplest
response to this question is "why?". </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I wondered the same, since the result is obviously inadequate to make
the table at all useful</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Isn't normalising to 1NF unnecessary and bad practice?
</P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Only if you stop there and don't go on to 3NF (Reminds me of the Holy
Hand Grenade in The Life of Brian...)</DIV>
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Isn't it ideal to design databases to be 3NF compliant in the
first instance? Why bother with this step? Is the purpose of
this question to merely see if students instance what 1NF is?
</P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I suspect it is. It seems they were trying to ease off normalisation
for this year at least. </DIV>
<DIV>But to normalise that horrible table to only 1NF is completely
pointless and artificial without going on to 2NF...</DIV>
<DIV>Like asking art students to paint a face without eyes.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Without 2NF and more tables, the mixing of interestgroups data and
contactlist data in a single record is ridiculous, and I can't see a
reasonable solution that would make the data useful. Expanding a
<B>single</B> field (like interestgroups) into 3 new records would let the
kids show they understand 1NF, but why add <I>another</I> similar field
to just make it awfully messy and difficult, for no greater demonstration of
1NF knowledge?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I can't work out whether the examiners were looking for this...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><IMG src="cid:DDC764C1BCFB4166B79551D03CD08F8E@timmerarends" width=556
height=150><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>or - as Gary has suggested - 15 records, repeating each interest
group 3 times to add the contactlist data. And that's a LOT of writing for 3
marks.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Whichever way you choose, the result is an ugly, unusable mess.</DIV>
<DIV>The question should have limited itself to <B>one</B> repeating field
and left the other one well out of it.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr>At least it was only 3 marks and not 6 or 8 like other years.
</P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, that was a relief.</DIV>
<DIV>The fact that it was only worth 3 marks - and the space provided for
the answer was only a third of a page - suggests to me that they were
expecting the shorter answer I showed above. But that's a guess.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>*I* would not have written 15 lines for 3 marks, I can tell you!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Mark Kelly</DIV>
<DIV>mark AT vceit DOT com</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://vceit.com" target=_blank>http://vceit.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><I>I love the sound of people's voices after they stop
talking.</I></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I, Mark Kelly, am entirely responsible for the offensive verbiage I
spew forth.</DIV>
<DIV>Have I offended anyone with this post? I would not be
surprised.</DIV>
<DIV>If offended, please whinge to me at the email address
above. </DIV>
<DIV>Please leave poor Kevork alone. It is not his
fault.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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