<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><div>Repeating a post from last year.... I always taught that tables were for storing basic data. Forms and reports were for displaying the required information. Queries were for doing the processing (sorting, selecting, calculating, etc.) required to use the data to produce the information.</div><div><br></div><div>Therefore the only place for calculated fields is in queries.<br><br>Sent from my iPad<div><br></div><div>John S. Schwartz</div></div><div>Semi-retired</div><br>Sent from my iPad<div><br></div><div>John S. Schwartz</div></div><div><br>On 27 Mar 2014, at 9:30 am, "Benn POLLOCK" <<a href="mailto:pol@wantirnacollege.vic.edu.au">pol@wantirnacollege.vic.edu.au</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">I've always taught my students to never include a calculated field in a table as it breaks 3NF. If they are required, they must show them via developing a Query.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 9:15 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:itapps-request@edulists.com.au" target="_blank">itapps-request@edulists.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: MS Access - Calculated fields (Litsa Tzelepis)<br>
2. Re: MS Access - Calculated fields (Savage, John L)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:29:33 +1100<br>
From: Litsa Tzelepis <<a href="mailto:htzelepis@msj.vic.edu.au">htzelepis@msj.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
<<a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
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Oh never in a table. In a query only. I missed that bit in the original<br>
message. I agree fully.<br>
<br>
On Wednesday, March 26, 2014, Natalie H <<a href="mailto:natinga71@yahoo.com">natinga71@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> I'd never store a calculated field in a table. Queries all the way.<br>
><br>
> Natalie Heath, Parade College<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPad<br>
><br>
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 8:27 pm, John Schwartz <<a href="mailto:schwartz@melbpc.org.au">schwartz@melbpc.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I am in total agreement.<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPad<br>
><br>
> John S. Schwartz<br>
><br>
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 4:44 pm, "Groves, Brett G" <<br>
> <a href="mailto:groves.brett.g@edumail.vic.gov.au">groves.brett.g@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi all - my 2 centimes<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Can't really see the value of calculated fields in Access, maybe it is<br>
> because I come at it from an SQL perspective but it represents fairly dodgy<br>
> database practice methinks.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Can't really see how you can have true 3N with a calculated field stored<br>
> in a table? Or have I got my head around it wrong?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I don't think I'll be including it at present; students should be using<br>
> forms (and attendant query) in datasheet view for such operations IMHO<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Kind Regards,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Brett Groves<br>
><br>
> <image001.gif><br>
><br>
> Melba College<br>
><br>
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> *From:* <a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [<br>
> mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>] *On Behalf Of *Robert Timmer-Arends<br>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 13 February 2014 5:32 PM<br>
> *To:* Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Hello Damien<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> you may find this discussion useful<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> <a href="http://allenbrowne.com/casu-14.html" target="_blank">http://allenbrowne.com/casu-14.html</a><br>
><br>
> The update at the end covers Access 2010<br>
><br>
><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:15:38 +0000<br>
From: "Savage, John L" <<a href="mailto:savage.john.l@edumail.vic.gov.au">savage.john.l@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
<<a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
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<br>
I think you're right. Having calculated fields defined in the tables takes us right away from a pure Codd style database. On the other hand Filemaker and, on DOS, DataPerfect did it for years. Convenience over purity?<br>
<br>
My gut feeling is to stay away from calculated fields at this stage and use queries. Always best to start with best practice and then learn the tricks.<br>
<br>
Laurie Savage<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>] On Behalf Of Groves, Brett G<br>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 March 2014 4:28 PM<br>
To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
<br>
Hi all - my 2 centimes<br>
<br>
Can't really see the value of calculated fields in Access, maybe it is because I come at it from an SQL perspective but it represents fairly dodgy database practice methinks.<br>
<br>
Can't really see how you can have true 3N with a calculated field stored in a table? Or have I got my head around it wrong?<br>
<br>
I don't think I'll be including it at present; students should be using forms (and attendant query) in datasheet view for such operations IMHO<br>
<br>
Kind Regards,<br>
<br>
Brett Groves<br>
[logosmall]<br>
Melba College<br>
eLearning Leader<br>
03 9725 8277 Ext 221<br>
eLearning Resources for Educators<<a href="http://melba.vic.edu.au/curriculum/elearning/" target="_blank">http://melba.vic.edu.au/curriculum/elearning/</a>><br>
Newsletter sign up<<a href="http://melba.vic.edu.au/curriculum/elearning/elearning-newsletter/" target="_blank">http://melba.vic.edu.au/curriculum/elearning/elearning-newsletter/</a>><br>
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From: <a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>] On Behalf Of Robert Timmer-Arends<br>
Sent: Thursday, 13 February 2014 5:32 PM<br>
To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
<br>
Hello Damien<br>
<br>
you may find this discussion useful<br>
<br>
<a href="http://allenbrowne.com/casu-14.html" target="_blank">http://allenbrowne.com/casu-14.html</a><br>
The update at the end covers Access 2010<br>
<br>
Personally, the only situation I can see that might justify a value that is calculated once and then stored in a field (as Access 2010 seems to do), is where you need to squeeze every bit of performance out of the dbms that you can; for example, if you had a truck load of data that had to be pulled frequently, calculating a new value each time (either by query or on the fly like FileMaker) could slow retrieval down. But I can't see that happening on modern equip unless you have a lot of data, and/or maybe an overworked remote server?<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Robert T-A<br>
Brighton SC<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: ATKINSON-BUCK, Damien<mailto:<a href="mailto:Damien.ATKINSON-BUCK@ivanhoe.com.au">Damien.ATKINSON-BUCK@ivanhoe.com.au</a>><br>
To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:38 PM<br>
Subject: [Year 12 IT Apps] MS Access - Calculated fields<br>
<br>
Hi folks,<br>
Just looking into Outcome 2 and looking at the 2010 version of MS Access. I hadn't noticed before, but you can now create a calculated field in the table definitions. This means that not only does it do the calculation (duh) but stores that value too, so you no longer have to create a query to do that.<br>
Now, I always stress to my cherubs that one of the primary reasons for making a database is to reduce the amount of space the data is going to take up. This new 'feature' does the reverse. Given hard drives are so cheap and our down databases are comparatively quite small, it doesn't really affect SAC scenarios......... but should we be teaching best practices or "The Way of the Access"? How do others feel about this?<br>
Cheers<br>
Damien<br>
<br>
Damien Atkinson-Buck<br>
Head of Learning Area: Technology/Arts<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><b><font size="4" face="arial narrow, sans-serif">Benn Pollock</font></b><div><font face="arial narrow, sans-serif" color="#000000">VCE Information Technology Teacher</font></div>
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