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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>What is your take on all this Geoff?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hutchison.geoffrey.g@edumail.vic.gov.au
href="mailto:hutchison.geoffrey.g@edumail.vic.gov.au">Hutchison, Geoffrey
G</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 05, 2013 5:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Students
meeting outcomes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Haha. A bunch of crazies have convinced you you're not crazy.
Lol</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: #575757; FONT-SIZE: 75%">Sent from my Samsung Galaxy
S3</DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>-------- Original message --------<BR>From:
Stephanie POLAN <<A
href="mailto:pos@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">pos@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</A>>
<BR>Date: <BR>To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List <<A
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</A>>
<BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Students meeting outcomes <BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Thank you everyone, You are all wise and wonderful and have made
me feel so much better, with your help I have ascertained that I'm not
crazy!!
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Your advice has made a huge difference!!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cheers </DIV>
<DIV>Stepha</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Mark Scott <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:msc@luther.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>msc@luther.vic.edu.au</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>I agree but my original comment still stands.<BR><BR>An
"S" is meaningless to "future employees or tertiary institutions".<BR>
<DIV class=HOEnZb>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]
On Behalf Of Savage, John L<BR>Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 1:31 PM<BR>To:
Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT
Apps] Students meeting outcomes<BR><BR>In a school where many parents may
only have a primary school education, the achievement of a "High School
Diploma" is an end in itself and is not to be sneezed at and will often
represent sheer persistence. Not all year 12 students are aiming for
tertiary entrance although 60% of ours get there and almost none are
unemployed after year 12.<BR><BR>Laurie Savage<BR>Pascoe Vale Girls
College<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]
On Behalf Of Matheson, Geoff J<BR>Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 8:02
AM<BR>To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<BR>Subject: Re:
[Year 12 IT Apps] Students meeting outcomes<BR><BR>I'm not so sure you can
say that the "S" is meaningless in the real world.<BR>For many of my
students, completing the VCE is an achievement in and of itself, and the "S"
is the ultimate determinant on whether or not that happens. "Completing the
VCE" still has meaning for employers, and I find that if students are
struggling to meet the "S" requirements of IT Apps or Software Development,
they are likely struggling to complete the VCE more
broadly.<BR><BR><BR>Geoff Matheson<BR>Senior Campus Reports
Co-ordinator<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On 5/06/13 4:42 AM, "Mark Scott" <<A
href="mailto:msc@luther.vic.edu.au">msc@luther.vic.edu.au</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR>>Steph<BR>><BR>>Just keep in mind that future
employees or tertiary institutions won't<BR>>hold an S in a subject in
any high regard if their marks are so low<BR>>that they do not achieve a
reportable ATAR.<BR>>As Robert has said the consequences for the student
is the UG grade.<BR>>The S is meaningless in the real
world.<BR>><BR>>Mark Scott<BR>>Luther
College<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>Mark Scott<BR>>Daily
Administrator<BR>><BR>>Plymouth Road<BR>>Croydon Hills Victoria
3136<BR>><BR>><BR>>Telephone (03) 9724 2000<BR>>Direct Line (03)
9724 2023<BR>><A href="http://www.luther.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>www.luther.vic.edu.au</A><BR>><BR>>Please consider the
environment before printing this email.<BR>><BR>>This email and any
attachments may contain privileged and
confidential<BR>>information.<BR>>If you are not the intended
recipient you may not distribute or<BR>>reproduce this email or
attachments. If you have received this message<BR>>in error please notify
us by return
mail.<BR>>________________________________________<BR>>From: <A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>
[<A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]<BR>>On
Behalf Of Robert Timmer-Arends [<A
href="mailto:timmer@westnet.com.au">timmer@westnet.com.au</A>]<BR>>Sent:
Tuesday, June 04, 2013 6:58 PM<BR>>To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers'
Mailing List<BR>>Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Students meeting
outcomes<BR>><BR>>Hello Stephanie<BR>><BR>>just to add to
Robert's statement, the study design also says (p31) 'to<BR>>achieve this
outcome the student will draw on key knowledge and key<BR>>skills
outlined in Area of Study 2' and then goes on to list 15 KK<BR>>points
and 6 KS points. From what you have said, the student
has<BR>>demonstrated a minimum knowledge of the use of the chosen
software<BR>>(covered by dot point 4 of KS) and nothing else. For
example, did<BR>>he/she design a solution? did he/she select and apply
testing<BR>>methods...? has he/she demonstrated knowledge of design tools
for<BR>>describing data type? and so on. VCAA says the dot points should
not be<BR>>a checklist, but at the same time this does not mean a student
should<BR>>be given the nod for just demonstrating achievement of one of
them.<BR>><BR>>Also, don't forget that while the student may
eventually be awarded an 'S'<BR>>for the outcome (as others have pointed
out), the grade you award for<BR>>the SAC (which is 'stand-alone') will
stand no matter what the student<BR>>demonstrated beforehand or
demonstrates afterward - and it sounds like<BR>>a UG is in the
offing.<BR>><BR>>Regards<BR>>Robert
T-A<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>----- Original Message
-----<BR>>From: <<A
href="mailto:geoffmoss37@bigpond.com">geoffmoss37@bigpond.com</A>><BR>>To:
"Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"<BR>><<A
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</A>><BR>>Sent:
Tuesday, June 04, 2013 5:38 PM<BR>>Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps]
Students meeting outcomes<BR>><BR>><BR>>> Hi
Stephanie<BR>>><BR>>> I agree with Robert. Keep in mind
that the granting of the 'S' does<BR>>>not need to occur in the
production of the SAC. The student should<BR>>>be/is able
to demonstrate these skills during the time of the<BR>>>outcome,
including the practice SAC and any other
preparatory<BR>>>classes, as well as during the
SAC.<BR>>><BR>>> This enables a student who was unable to attend
or complete a SAC due<BR>>> to illness or any other excuse that does
not allow an extension to<BR>>> gain an 'S' for the
outcome.<BR>>><BR>>> Geoff Moss<BR>>>
RMIT<BR>>><BR>>> ---- Robert <<A
href="mailto:robert@yinnar.com">robert@yinnar.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>>> Hi Stephanie,<BR>>>><BR>>>> Neither
Wonderful nor Wise, but certainly older than Mark
:-)<BR>>>><BR>>>> To add to Mark Scott's response to your
question. I do not agree<BR>>>> with
Mark.<BR>>>><BR>>>> The study design clearly states
that<BR>>>><BR>>>> "The award of satisfactory completion
for a unit is based on a<BR>>>> decision that the student has
demonstrated achievement of the set of<BR>>>> outcomes specified
for the unit. This decision will be based on the<BR>>>> teacher's
assessment of the student's performance on assessment<BR>>>> tasks
designated for the unit."<BR>>>><BR>>>> So in terms of
Unit 3 Outcome 2, Task 1, the student would have
to<BR>>>><BR>>>> "Design, and develop using a relational
database management system,<BR>>>> a solution to an information
problem"<BR>>>><BR>>>> This does require the student to,
amongst other things: ( See<BR>>>>Assessment Handbook
)<BR>>>> a.. select and use appropriate software functions
of relational<BR>>>>database management software, as published
annually in the VCAA<BR>>>>Bulletin VCE, VCAL and VET, to
create database tables, relationships<BR>>>>among them and to
construct queries to retrieve required
information<BR>>>>(underlining<BR>>>>
mine)<BR>>>> If your student did not do this then he should not get
an S. By your<BR>>>>description he did not did not do all
this.<BR>>>><BR>>>> By all means give him a chance to
redeem himself, in fact you should<BR>>>> do
this.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Robert Hind<BR>>>>
Retired<BR>>>> Ex Traralgon and
Ashwood<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>>>> From: Mark
Scott<BR>>>> To: 'Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
List'<BR>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 3:42
PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Students meeting
outcomes<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> Hi
Steph<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Not sure if I qualify as Wonderful or Wise
but.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Yes this is an
S.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> We
did away with the concept of "fail" years ago so we could
brag<BR>>>>about the "pass" rate at
VCE.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Mark<BR>>>><BR>>>> Luther
College<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Mark Scott<BR>>>>
Daily Administrator<BR>>>>
Luther<BR>>>><BR>>>> Plymouth
Road<BR>>>> Croydon Hills Victoria
3136<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Luther<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Telephone (03) 9724 2000<BR>>>> Direct
Line (03) 9724 2023<BR>>>> <A
href="http://www.luther.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>www.luther.vic.edu.au</A><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Please consider the environment before printing this
email.<BR>>>><BR>>>> This email and any attachments
may contain privileged and<BR>>>>confidential
information.<BR>>>> If you are not the intended
recipient you may not distribute or<BR>>>>reproduce this
email<BR>>>> or attachments. If you have received this
message in error please<BR>>>>notify us by return
mail.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
From: <A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A><BR>>>>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]
On Behalf Of Stephanie POLAN<BR>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June
2013 3:21 PM<BR>>>> To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers'
Mailing List<BR>>>> Subject: [Year 12 IT Apps] Students
meeting
outcomes<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Good Afternoon Wonderfully Wise
People,<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
I'm looking for your professional opinion on the topic of how
much<BR>>>>work a student must produce in order to gain an S
on outcome 2
unit<BR>>>>3.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
I have a student that opened Access, created a table, created
a<BR>>>> query that didn't do anything 'query-like' he did all the
sorting<BR>>>> and calculating outside of
Access.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Apparently this is enough to get an
S.<BR>>>><BR>>>> This is my first year teaching
year 12 and find this concept<BR>>>> unbelievable, I can not
comprehend
this.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Your professional opinion/coping strategies would be
much<BR>>>>appreciated.<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Steph Polan<BR>>>><BR>>>>
--<BR>>>><BR>>>> Miss
Polan<BR>>>><BR>>>> McKinnon
SC<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>---<BR>>>>------<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
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target=_blank>http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.htm</A><BR>>>>l<BR>>>>
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target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au</A> - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology<BR>>>>Teachers Association Inc
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<DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>Miss Polan
<DIV>McKinnon SC</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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