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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My wife asked me to ask you "What
language is this written in?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Robert Hind (Semi-retired)<BR>Ex Traralgon and
Ashwood<BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=forster@ozonline.com.au href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au">Tony
Forster</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 04, 2007 5:24
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] What
Future IT? (Charmaine Taylor)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>engagement != learning !=
constructivism</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just the existence if engagement does not mean
good learning. Engagement is a precursor to good learning. Engagement is
best achieved through a relevant and authentic challenge and the
right tools which give <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"flow" or
a <EM>"Balance between ability level and challenge "</EM> </FONT><A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29</FONT></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What is being engaged in must require
worthwhile learning. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>The students must have
sufficient competency in the domain, often achieved through direct
instruction, to meet the challenge. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Constructivism is a little different. Learners
must construct their own understandings in their own way. Multiple
representations of the subject help learners assemble their
own internal mental models of the subject. Good constructivist learning
is engaging because it can induce the rewarding psychological sensation of
"flow".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You quote <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM"
target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM </FONT></A><BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>where the results for situated learning
were comparable even though the class was more engaged .</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This still leaves the questions: what was
being tested and are we really testing for the outcomes we want?
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Education generally tests for the outcomes that
are easy to measure rather than the outcomes that are desired. Higher order
outcomes (in Blooms Taxonomy) are generally harder to define and harder to
measure. We want to produce versatile thinkers and problem solvers but the
tests were not measuring this. The Nintendo group may have had better
outcomes in the higher order skills but the testing described is
unlikely to measure this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=billkerr@gmail.com href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com">Bill Kerr</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers'
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=forster@ozonline.com.au
href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au">Tony Forster</A> ; <A
title=artichoke@ihug.co.nz href="mailto:artichoke@ihug.co.nz">Artichoke</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] What
Future IT? (Charmaine Taylor)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>I was holding off from commenting here but it seems
that not everyone has gone into holiday mode, so I'll say something.
<BR><BR>If we look at this list:<BR><BR>- motivation<BR>- engagement<BR>-
inclusive learning<BR>- discovery learning <BR>- constructivism<BR>-
constructionism<BR><BR>I don't think these terms mean the same thing but at
least some are being used interchangeably <BR><BR>Most of the recent
research I have seen is in the opposite direction of what Charmaine says -
<BR><BR>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">"Fantastic example of constructivist learning
Keith! It's what the recent educational research has discovered is needed to
engage students so that they achieve better learning" <BR></DIV><BR>eg. I
wrote a response to one such study that claimed that minimal guidance during
instruction does not work - but there are many such studies around<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/10/minimal-guidance-during-instruction.html"
target=_blank>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/10/minimal-guidance-during-instruction.html</A><BR>(link
in that blog to a critical discussion about discovery learning - wag the dog
entry on artichokes blog)<BR><BR>I would like there to be a smooth
connection between increased motivation / engagement and increased learning
but the research history suggests to me that it is far from smooth - this
includes the old logo research <BR><BR>It could be that motivation increases
but learning does not necessarily increase or is equivalent or is less cf an
instructionist scenario. It's nice when students are motivated but how do we
really know that long term learning has increased? <BR><BR>I think the
research undertaken by the game maker cluster showed increases in
motivation, fun, engagement for some (not all) students but we didn't really
produce any hard evidence about increased learning - some anecdotal yes,
hard evidence, no <BR><BR>Here is a post from mark guzdial<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM"
target=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM
</A><BR>about a parallel study comparable to keith's- two ways of teaching
intro to computer systems, one formal and one real life - the results for
the learning were comparable even though the real life class was more
engaged <BR><BR>I support constructionist learning in theory and practice
but think we need to be careful not to make wholesale claims for fuzzy
"discovery learning". These issues are complex, there is good and bad
"discovery learning". When the evidence is *not* forthcoming for extravagent
claims then that actually acts as fuel for those pushing the opposite agenda
- back to basics instructionism. <BR><BR>-- <BR>Bill Kerr<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/"
target=_blank>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/</A><BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebillkerr/" target=_blank></A><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 9/28/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Roland
Gesthuizen</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:rgesthuizen@gmail.com" target=_blank>rgesthuizen@gmail.com
</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Too
right Kevork! There is a lot to be said for constructivist learning,
generating and using data that the students have "real ownership' of. ..
my lot struggled through charting last year until I let them develop a
plan for their school formal. It was fascinating to watch the school
captain walk about the room, correcting the other plans to keep them on
time and on budget. It was her job to actually organise the 'real' senior
student formal and in the process she was able to recruit some helpers.
For our practice outcomes we covered the Scout Mudbash and the chap who
ran the local pizza shop next to our school. <BR><BR>Of course, as
eductors it doesnt mean that we sit back and watch. We still have a very
important role to structure discussions, dig up supporting resources and
give the odd tap on the steering wheel to get things back on track.
<BR><BR>Regards Roland
<DIV><SPAN><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 28/09/2007, <B
class=gmail_sendername>Kevork Krozian</B> <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au" target=_blank>
Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi
Guys,<BR><BR>Fabulous examples from Charmaine and Keith
..!!!<BR>Couldn't agree more ! <BR><BR>I am the last living IPM teacher
at my school and I had struggled with Project Management in terms of
engagement. The students didn't need to build a house or landscape a
block of land but they did want to go on a schoolies holiday at the end
of the year ! <BR><BR>So we had as our project aim " organising the
schoolies holiday". Some of the tasks
included:<BR> 1. Selecting members of the group
to holiday together<BR> 2. Deciding on a location
for the holiday <BR> 3. Selecting a property at
which to stay<BR> 4. Collecting money for a
deposit<BR> 5. Signing the
lease/contract<BR> 6. etc etc<BR><BR>It seemed to
really fire them up so there it is again. Engagement when it is relevant
or they have a direct input in the process and the direction of the
learning. <BR><BR>PS . Will this encourage you to perhaps put off your
retirement Keith ??!!<BR><BR>Take Care<BR>Kevork<BR><BR>>>>
Charmaine Taylor <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:tigeroz@alphalink.com.au" target=_blank>
tigeroz@alphalink.com.au</A> > 27/09/2007 9:02 pm
>>><BR>Fantastic example of constructivist learning
Keith! It's what the<BR>recent educational research has
discovered is needed to engage students<BR>so that they achieve better
learning. We need more of this. <BR><BR>Charmaine
Taylor<BR><BR><BR>Keith Richardson wrote:<BR><BR>>Charmaine - your
voice is like music in my ears! "...from the point of<BR>>view of the
problem to be solved..." is the secret to highly motivated
<BR>>behaviour across all subject areas, not just
computing.<BR>>Here is a specific example that will make my
point:<BR>>I tried an interesting parallel experiment with my two Yr
7 science<BR>>classes.<BR>>With the first I designed a logical
series of practical experiments <BR>>involving measurement,
mathematical calculations, graphing of results<BR>>all investigating
the operation of levers. I thought the design was<BR>>fantastic, but
the kids did not get involved at all. "Boring!" was their
<BR>>verdict.<BR>>With the second class, I showed them a
desktop-trebuchet I had made and<BR>>challenged them to design and
build one themselves that would throw a<BR>>small rubber ring over 3
metres. They were given a period and heaps of <BR>>equipment to
select from. Periodically I stopped them to discuss
safety<BR>>telling them that over the centuries of use many trebuchet
operators<BR>>were killed, and I did not want to add to the number
here! The classes <BR>>enthusiasm was staggering, and I enjoyed
watching them make mistake<BR>>after mistake but edging towards
success as they worked at making a<BR>>LEVER solve this problem for
them. I guarantee that their instinctive <BR>>understanding of how to
make use of a lever will stay with them for<BR>>life, and many of
them will make actual use of this wisdom in
the<BR>>future.<BR>><BR>>So, Charmaine, I agree with
you.<BR>><BR>>Regards, Keith<BR>>Keith
Richardson<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target=_blank>
http://www.edulists.com.au</A> - FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe
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target=_blank>http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.auvce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html
</A>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <BR>><A
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href="http://www.vitta.org.au"
target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au</A> - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________
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target=_blank>http://www.edulists.com.au</A> - FAQ, resources,
subscribe, unsubscribe<BR>IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.vitta.org.au"
target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au</A> - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.edulists.com.au"
target=_blank>http://www.edulists.com.au</A> - FAQ, resources,
subscribe, unsubscribe <BR>IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported
by <BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
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target=_blank>http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.auvce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html
</A>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.vitta.org.au"
target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au</A> - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology Teachers Association
Inc<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR></SPAN></DIV>-- <BR>Roland
Gesthuizen - ICT Coordinator - Westall Secondary College <BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.westallsc.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>http://www.westallsc.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>"Never doubt that
a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world;
indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
_______________________________________________ <SPAN><BR><A
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href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target=_blank>http://www.edulists.com.au
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target=_blank>http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.auvce/studies/infotech/infotechindex.html
</A>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
<DIV><SPAN><BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au </A>-
VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association
Inc</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR><BR>
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