[English] expected qualities
Prue Gill
pruegill at bigpond.com
Fri Jul 13 12:48:56 EST 2012
And one other thing to remember - assessment of written work in English
involves matters of judgement. There are not neat answers to Russell's
questions - the questions are important because they lead to discussion, and
we make our judgement based on all those discussions we have had about what
distinguishes one piece of writing from another. Those judgements are up for
challenge, and it is in those challenges that I've had some of my best
professional development. We should not be frightened by the lack of
certainty, but thankful because we are reminded that there are still
surprises for us to be had when we read student writing. I like reading
discussions like this.
Prue
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Reynolds, Gail G
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 10:50 AM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
To weigh into this discussion again, Russell, as I tried to indicate in my
previous email, those are guidelines for the assessors, not dot points to be
ticked off. The words you are worrying about are markers only of high level
responses (if you like an answer to the question what differentiates a high
scoring response?) Remember purpose and audience, these are assessor
guidelines and intended for that purpose they are not criteria as such but
descriptors intended to characterise.
Secondly you are not understanding the meaning of the point, because you
have emphasised part of the statement only. The reason that this point does
not appear in the lower descriptors is that this characteristic only belongs
to a 9 or 10 script, ie the best and the best of the best.
The 'strategy' is NOT NECESSARILY about 'supplying an argument' (although in
some cases it could be) There are any number of ways the 'appropriate
strategy' can be achieved The minute a list is created, then other
strategies, not envisioned by the maker/s of the list, are excluded but the
descriptors are intended to be open so that students who have high level
skills to employ unusual but effective and highly engaging ways of exploring
the text and the question are not penalised but can be rewarded. The
'strategy' reflects the student's high level ability to engage with the
issues of the text and topic , the way the issues are raised by the author,
the way meaning is created for the audience... in short it is about
insightful ways of thinking
Gail
_____
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [english-bounces at edulists.com.au] on
behalf of rdf4 at bigpond.com [rdf4 at bigpond.com]
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 9:16 AM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
I'm sorry you seem to think I'm playing around here Mary. I explained
earlier why I think this is an important issue. The term the basis of the
text is increasingly looking like a set of weasel words to me and in the
pursuit of clarity I intend to continue to ask what it means. Your
sentence, The basis of the text can give rise to multiple meanings of it.
Might be more simply and clearly be written as 'the text can give rise to
multiple readings'. I still have no idea what is meant by the basis of the
text. 'Basis' implies a foundation, as I said before its one thing. What is
the foundation of Macbeth? perhaps it is the text itself. Now this is
circular and clearly unhelpful. I suggest again that the phrase as it stands
in the descriptor is redundant, as it is in your sentence.
Secondly, if a strategy is supplying an argument, then why doesn't the
descriptor mention the word argument in its stead. One would expect the
ability to supply an argument to be a feature of middle ranking papers as
well as the 9-10 grade where it singularly appears. Further to this, I would
be looking for an 'effective' argument, not being sure what an appropriate
one is...
But thanks for your input so far.... I understand if feel you can't continue
and prefer to simply disagree.
Russell
From: Mary Mason <mailto:mary.mason at bigpond.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:32 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List' <mailto:english at edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
I think you are now playing with words. The basis of the text can give rise
to multiple meanings of it. I can argue about Macbeth from a feminist
perspective; I can argue that he is beguiled by the witches and his wife; I
can argue that he has created a weaker
Scotland; and so on. In each case I am using the text as the basis but I am
giving it an angle, or following a particular perspective. In terms of
strategy, as a marker, you look for an argument and how appropriately
students have argued. I think students do make choices about what strategy
to adopt and when there is congruence with what they are arguing, it is
magic. Russell, perhaps we just disagree.
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:06 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Mary; and thanks for the response...
I think what you've written actually highlights one of the aspects of the
issue: you write that you're guessing twice and presuming once in your
interpretation of this, I would argue, poorly written descriptor.
If I understand you correctly you're suggesting that the idea of multiple
readings constitute the basis of the text. As I understand it a basis is
one thing, so I'm not sure if this is possible.
You go on to argue that 'appropriateness' suggests choices, but the
descriptor specifically mention an appropriate strategy, not that students
would put up one strategy, and then another, then demonstrate that they've
chosen one. Anyway, what I want know is what is such an appropriate strategy
and, by definition, what is an inappropriate one. Two responses so for have
tried to argue that relevance her might be the discriminating element here.
Gail suggested that students can wonder off topic. Her example was the
Years of Wonders one where students might talk in general terms about the
plague in London and forget the setting of the text being Eyam. This hardly
seems like an issue to do with a highly graded paper. The American novel
containing flashbacks seems like students need to deal with a fairly clear
structural element within the text: time shifts. I haven't read it myself
so I cant comment on the complexity of it... but the issue is, again, not
one of complexity, but of the two elements an appropriate strategy in
dealing with the topic and what is the basis of the text. As far as I can
see no clear explanation has been arrived at.
Thanks
Russell
From: Mary Mason <mailto:mary.mason at bigpond.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 1:36 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List' <mailto:english at edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi - I am not an assessor now but given that there are multiple readings of
texts I guess that what this descriptor is saying is that any reading must
be grounded in the text and recognising that such readings will be
different. Presumably the ways in which students interrogate the text should
show the complexity of their response and the choices they deliberately make
to express their reading. Appropriateness suggests they make choices. For
example on Sunday School this week, a teacher talked about the importance of
students not just pursuing the flashbacks of the main character of the novel
to America but the lived in present of his dialogue with the American. Those
students who merely explore the flashbacks without relating it to present
time would not have such a complex reading and may just be repeating a
received reading instead of using all of their knowledge about the text to
tackle the question dynamically. I guess if I were marking - and I have
marked in the past - I would be looking for not only the capacity of the
student to have developed a complex reading of the text which is supported
by that text, but I would be looking at the fluency through which he or she
could express that meaning cogently, and succinctly using appropriate
metalanguage which is at the same time evocative of the language of the
novel. The very best answers use language so well. I have also marked
literature as well and in both cases originality and complexity of reading
matched by excellent fluency are the hallmarks of top answers. Why is the
basis of the text not in other levels? Well it should be but it is only in
those high answers that the response is controlled and the student is making
choices about appropriate strategies.
Cheers
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 1:20 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Wondering if there's any other assessors on this thread who care to comment
on the descriptor in question... Personally, and professionally I might add,
I find this an interesting issue. If these descriptors hold any weight at
all in the assessment process then don't we have an obligation to understand
them; or if they are poorly written then at least identify their
shortcomings and deal with it...?
The key questions once again are: What is the basis of the text? For
instance, what is the basis of, say, Cat's Eye? And what is meant by an
appropriate strategy for dealing with it (ie the topic) and why is there no
need for a strategy (appropriate or otherwise) below the 9-10 range?
Thanks
Russell
From: rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:14 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List <mailto:english at edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Gail
Thanks for contributing to this thread.
Just to be clear, it's dot point 2 in the 8-10 range I'm referring to. I
suppose good, clear writing is what I'm concerned about here. Firstly, if
someone could explain to me what the basis of the text is, why it is
considered so important then maybe we could then discuss profitable ways of
teaching to it. For instance, what is the basis of the text Cat's Eye by
Margaret Atwood? Secondly, what is meant by an appropriate strategy and
why aren't students below the 9-10 range considered to need one, appropriate
or otherwise?
I don't have any anxieties about the discrepancy rates or lack thereof, just
thinking that we need to know exactly what is going on in the language and
syntax of this descriptor. Gail's point about students thinking they are
meeting the [wider] implications surely become an issue when no such
implications are referred to in the examination criteria.
Russell
From: Reynolds, Gail G <mailto:reynolds.gail.g at edumail.vic.gov.au>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:57 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List <mailto:english at edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Russell,
I think the point of the phrase is that the weaker students will often go
off into tangents separating their exploration of the iissues from the text
itself; so for example a Year of Wonders response might wander off into a
discussion of the plague in general terms, say, how many were killed in
London, which is irrelevant to the text which is set (apparently) in Eyam an
isolated small village well away from London. The student themselves may
think they are meeting the wider implications criteria, but they are not
addressing the text. The phrase which worries you is a reminder to the
Assessors that these discussions need to be in a context which has a
substantial link to the content of the text. (Remember that these criteria
are not the ones given on the exam paper but intended for the assessors -- a
process I think is somewhat duplicitous ... but that is another issue
altogether)
You should also consider that the assessors make 'on balance' decisions in a
process which is holistic marking, ie markers don't tick off criteria as
such, but use them as a guide for their marking. An experienced assessor
will use these criteria to differentiate scripts, but two responses may
receive the same marks although the degree to which they meet each of the
stated criteria may show greater strength in one area over another when
compared one to the other. It sounds complex, but English has a very low
discrepancy rate (assessors disagreeing)
Gail
_____
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [english-bounces at edulists.com.au] on
behalf of rdf4 at bigpond.com [rdf4 at bigpond.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 July 2012 11:13 AM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Cc: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hello Julie and thanks for your response...
I don't have an issue with the key words you identify... though I have a
nagging feeling that the phrase " from the basis of the text" is redundant.
I mean the exam topic itself invariably refers to the text. Unless it's
referring to something else, I don't understand why it's there. Also your
point about "understanding the text in the wider world"... isn't this a C&P
feature rather than a R&R one? My understanding of an R&R response is that
it deals with the world of the text, not real world elements...
I also wonder what is meant by "an appropriate strategy for dealing with it"
... ie the topic; and why marks below 8 don't need a strategy, appropriate
or otherwise. >From your point of view what would such an appropriate
strategy be? Perhaps others also have thoughts on this?
Thanks again,
Russell
From: Julie <mailto:bookjewel6 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 8:50 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List <mailto:english at edulists.com.au>
Cc: mailto:english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Russell,
The key words in this description, for me, are: 'implications', 'exploring'
and 'complexity'. The thinking associated with these words is quite
sophisticated. While we hope that all students respond 'from the basis of
the text' it is usually clear that the best responses take the ideas so much
further. The basic response 'describes' the ideas in the topic while the
best response moves way beyond this and understands the text in the wider
world.
It is hard to explain but when you see the difference in student responses
the difference is more obvious.
Regards,
Julie Squires
On 09/07/2012, at 12:42 PM, <rdf4 at bigpond.com> wrote:
Hi
I'm looking at the 2011 Expected Qualities (Reading and Responding) for exam
markers and wonder what people understand by the term... "Demonstrates an
understanding of the implications of the topic...exploring its complexity
from the basis of the text." I note that this expected quality is only
referred to in the 8-10 mark range. One would like to think that most
students would use the text as the basis for their response; or am I missing
the point...?
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/english/2008eng-crit-descriptors.pdf
Russell
From: Lorraine Paul <mailto:lorrainepaul at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 7:58 PM
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Thanks Mary. I teach in an independent school. It's nice when you have
forums like this. All the best!
Lorraine
_____
From: mary.mason at bigpond.com
To: english at edulists.com.au
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 09:21:46 +1000
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Lorraine - I'm sorry. You need to have an edumail address to access the
site. You can be a crt teacher or an employee in a state school.
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Lorraine Paul
Sent: Saturday, 7 July 2012 11:15 PM
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Hello Mary,
Is this open only to State School Teachers ?
Lorraine
!
_____
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 12:58:49 +1000
From: mcclenaghan.douglas.j at edumail.vic.gov.au
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Hello Mary
Yes, I am certainly interested in this. Sign me up.
Yours
Douglas McClenaghan
>>> Mary Mason<mary.mason at bigpond.com> 7/06/2012 11:13 AM >>>
Dear VCE teachers
I am working with a group for the Department of Education on designing
course materials for Years 11 and 12 VCE English for State School Teachers.
We are also working on a site on! the Ultranet for teachers new to VCE
English. This site will provide excellent materials for teachers; provide
opportunities for them to ask questions of experienced VCE teachers;
participate in a forum with other teachers; and opportunities to access
virtual discussions/lectures on aspects of the course. We are also hopeful
that there could be a forum on it for collaborative research for VIT
projects. We would like to have about 30 teachers from state schools ,who
are presently teaching VCE, who would be willing to trial and help us to
build the site so it will be helpful for teachers. Participation will count
towards professional development time and will, I think, be most
interesting. If you are a CRT teacher you are welcome to join as well. I
know it is diffi! cult sometimes for you to pick up professional development
hours. Please contact me directly on my email: mary.mason at bigpond.com if you
are able to participate. The trial will be in Term 3 and will involve you
loggi! ng into the site, participating in some of the forums, and feeding
back to us your comments.
Best wishes
Mary Mason
Consultant to the Ultranet
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